How to explain to others

[Nire16]

Hi all! New here. I have gained so much insight from you all already. Thank you.

So, MIL has some sort of uPD. She is extraordinarily manipulative, and seems to have a "script" of sorts that she seems to have to adhere to...this script paints her as the victim/martyr, and anything that goes against this, she refuses to admit, or rewrites history about, or lies about. All of her manipulations are in the form of being generous (with HUGE strings attached), or laying on thick guilt because she "is just trying to be a mom", and "just trying to love us", etc. It's so difficult to explain what's going on to others. Even family members who are "on our side" because they love and believe us...it's hard for them to imagine what we're talking about, and even harder for my husband (who's totally Out of the FOG, and supportive of me)and I to attempt to explain. Everything mil does/says *seems* nice/genuine (but is laced with sugar-coated hostility) and lies/rewrites are *just* close enough to the truth to make her totally believable.

How do you guys explain what is going on? I find myself trying to list examples of what she's said/done, but I think I end up just sounding petty and bitter. I don't really care what others think, but sometimes I have trouble even explaining what has been going on even to myself! It is maddening. Help?

[all4peace]

Welcome, nire! That covert stuff is really hard to put a finger on. I understand. Sometimes I almost wish my uN/BPD ILs would be openly violent, or something that anyone could see the problem with.

Do you need to explain to others? Unless you are no contact (NC) with them, it seems that most of the time there's no need to explain anything. "We're not close" covers a lot. If you're willing to share more details, it might help us better know how to help you.

Again, welcome!

[Nire16]

Wanted to also explain: mil's behavior really only started to become clear to us once we had children, and I put my foot down that I had final say when it comes to them (duh). This, I think, made me "the enemy". Before then, she was super generous and nice, loved spending time with our children and us...then, the silent treatment started, the weird accusations, manipulations. I'm so confused about the whole thing. I don't know if she's aware of what she does. I don't know if it's safe for her to be around my children when I'm not there. My children are young (4 and 16 mos).

[Nire16]

Thank you, all4peace. You are one of my favorites! You give such great advice.

I'll try to explain more. MIL is very covert. She is wealthy, and has been very generous with our family, with gifts and with her time (taking care of my children, even me, after surgery)-- but what I realize now is that she does this to later use against us for not letting her have what she wants. What she wants is control, for us to do what she says unquestioningly, unfettered access to our children. When we do not give her these things, she gives us silent treatment, withholds her time (won't "be able" to help w/ children, we don't have other childcare or family help, and punishes us with guilt and jabs disguised as "caring").

Aaaaand, my baby is up from nap, I'll have to add later. There's so much. I have notebooks full of 1 million little things she's said/done, because it's all so confusing and hard to keep straight!

Thank you for your response and time and I'll be back!!

[all4peace]

Wow, what a compliment! Thank you

So it sounds like all her generosity comes with strings attached. And her generosity is public, for the world to see. But her strings are private, and attached to your parenting. So if you try to set boundaries at all, with this publicly generous MIL, you look bad and it's hard to explain why you would want to at all. Is that the general outline? I hope I'm understanding.

That is really tough. I also have ILs who withhold the very little they had to offer in the first place, if they are shown boundaries in any way. I'm still not sure it's necessary (except for maybe very close friends and family, who are your support, hopefully) to explain your ILs. The problem is that we LIVE this, we're inside of it, we have personally experienced it for years. It is incredibly hard to paint a real picture of that for someone else, and too often it can come off as petty, ungrateful, or just not a clear picture.

Is your MIL the type of person who will announce to the world if you set any boundaries for her? I do totally know what you mean about the martyr PD. uNBPDmil is also a victim/martyr. I totally understand your wish to explain "your side" to offset the baloney she may be telling others. I just think it's incredibly hard to do so without sinking to the same emotional level she appears to be at.

At this moment, my FOC is in a situation in which uNBPDmil will most definitely looking to be the victim. It will not matter how I handle it, or what the realities of the situation are. She will be the victim, and she will never, ever admit her decades of behavior that led to our current level of distance. Life takes a lot of energy, and a well-lived life most certainly takes energy and focus, and I'm working hard on leaving her issues with her and living as honestly and kindly as I can manage, and letting go of the rest. Easier said than done. It has been a long journey for me, and I know that each of us have different journeys and different lengths of that journey.

Glad you posted--we'll look forward to hearing more once your little one is settled

[Maisey]

It is boggling trying to expose these people, or even to warn others. I honestly believe my MIL is dangerous not only emotionally/ mentally to others, but is happy to see others take the blame for her actions. This could put someone in the position of taking the fall for something that could have serious consequences.  (Outside of the "normal"  stuff that is tearing apart relationships and  eating everyone up.)

You  have to experience them in their true self AND see the truth in your mind  AND believe the truth yourself to understand what they are doing to you. Then NOT rationalize their behavior to yourself with some logical reason for its occurrence. If that makes sense.

I was hyper vigilant to MIL actions for a couple years before feeling secure enough to point a finger. Most actions are very subtle and easy to explain away. I thought and thought and thought on how to express what I was confident was going on.

Then tried to touch on it with a sibling of mine. I said I thought I had a problem going on here and explained a few situations. This was met with some head shaking and "hmmmm, I really don't see that as possible. You must be mistaken".

Now, five years later that <sibling/siblings family unit/ siblings inlaws> has finally fallen victim and "noone is to bring that woman near or tell her anything about <my sibling/sibling family/sibling inlaws>".

And this past year MIL has exposed herself to the remainder of my FOO and a whole bunch of FOO friends. Now there is noone close to me that doesn't understand what she does. Its a big relief, but has been along time coming.

I spent all those years practically screaming from the roof tops and everyone felt I was mistaken or that I was being mean to  MIL. I was telling them : do not get in a vehicle with her no matter who was driving, do not be in a situation where you are alone with her, do not leave any one who is in any way vulnerable alone with her. When we changed some phone numbers, we told them not to give those numbers out, do not allow her to visit if our children are visiting their homes with out us (parents), do not tell about any places/plans we have made (because of stalking).

I think it simply got to the point where she had been denied access to my children and H and myself for so long that she had to branch out locally. She has her GC and comes from a very large family herself but none of them live in our state.

I feel bad  for the hurt/rages she inflicts on family/friends because I feel like the catalyst. If she wasn't my MIL she wouldn't be here in our midst causing pain. if I had wised up earlier and/or  been more forceful in outing her. But I have to stop myself when I get on that track and think about how many years I HAVE been warning others.

M.

[Spring Butterfly]

Welcome! Honestly I don't explain anything to others and it's not "my stuff" to warn or protect either. In the beginning of my journey I tried to talk to siblings about what I was feeling. It's was just me looking for support, not sides, but that's how it felt to sibs. I can see why they felt that way and PD persons are known for triangulation so without realizing it i was behaving similarly.

Covert PD are very good at hiding who they are and it's human nature to want to say 'wait did anyone else just see that?' With strong boundaries the mask does tend to slip more and they often wind up exposing themselves. If others are hurt by the PD that isn't on us, they chose to engage and they're all adults.

[mayaberry]

I agree with the other posters, and you said it yourself, that it's very difficult to explain to outsiders without sounding like you are bitter, paranoid or spiteful. Particularly if the pd is known to have publicly been very kind and giving towards you. I would agree that you have to be sure who you are telling and why. Do they need to know? Or is it just a case of being able to say you don't get on. I've never attempted to tell any of H's other family members about nmil and nsil. I don't know whether they notice their behaviour and I know it would end up making me look mean and spiteful. They are their family, not mine. They portray a very different image to them and I will never be able to persuade them of the truth or show them the truth because they will never act the way they do with us publicly. I have some close friends and my own family who are aware of the situation and they agree that some of their behaviours are bizarre and mean. But here's the thing, they don't want to hear it all the time because it's little things, it can sound like petty things and it gets boring pretty quick to people who don't truly get it and aren't having to live it. They are good to vent at now and again but they can't offer any solutions or suggestions because they don't really get it.
For other people, work colleagues etc, I just simply say that we don't get on. They do ask why we don't visit or if we will be seeing them on special occasions etc but whenever I say we don't get on, they usually just leave it at that. If anyone prys further I just say there's been a lot of little things over the years and we will never get on. They usually leave it at that. H made the mistake of telling someone he wasn't getting his mum a birthday present and a couple of colleagues whos mothers are aging and not doing well were horrified and gave him a really hard time about not looking after his mother etc. He was really upset about it. That one incident reminded both of us that outsiders will never truly get it and it can end up making you look bad.
I hope you find some support here and find a way of managing this but I would try to avoid trying to explain it to others where possible.

[Newlife33]

I can relate, and maybe offer some explanation of how people react to your situation.  Many people have great relationships with their parents, and they might bicker or fight or have arguements or conflicts, but they do it in the correct, healthy and resolving kind of way.  With our parents though, it is manipulation, control, emotional abuse and a severe amount of mental disfunction.  When you mention your problems, many people who have those great parent relationships will probably project themselves into there lives and think of you "yeah come on, everyone has fights with their parents sometime, just get over it and stop being petty."   It's hard for them to empathize with our lives and situation because they have never felt it.

[Georgiapeach]

I know this is an old topic, but I wanted to let you know that my mil is the same and it’s so hard. She’s wealthy, generous, well known and liked in the community, and has basically destroyed our name because we won’t let her have everything she wants with the kids. She refuses to make plans with us in advance (my husband is the sg), rather preferring to wait until the last minute to see what her other offers (esp from go bil and his kids) are and then ask to have our kids for a night with little notice. It’s expected that we will cancel whatever plans they have and bring them to her (she lives 1.5 hours away). If we don’t, she will cry and tell others that we are withholding them from her. It’s maddening.

[jazzhands]

Oh gosh, I am sorry that you're dealing with this. It really sucks! People who aren't exposed to this type of mental illness just don't get it. When we were first married I tried to explain it to people, but it's just so complicated that I now tell people that I have difficult in laws and leave it at that. The people who truly know them know what you're talking about and the people who don't will figure it out if they stick around for any length of time.

[Nire16]

Hi GeorgiaPeach! I'm glad you came back to this post and shared. It IS maddening, isn't it? I find coming here and reading advice from folks to be really helpful. What a few above mentioned re: other people who don't deal with toxic people really can't understand is so true.

With my mil, we have come to sort of an uneasy truce. The one good thing about her manipulative behavior is that it is totally predictable, so it's very easy to anticipate her next move. And really, I've just kind of...dropped the rope. I refuse to play her crazy games. I try really hard to not care about the vicious lies I know she's spreading about me. Before coming here to Out of the FOG, I had no idea about boundaries, so setting and keeping those has been immensely helpful. I just try to take everything she says at face value. She ALWAYS, always has a hidden meaning behind what she says, but I try my best to ignore and feign cheerful ignorance. Idk, it's a process. We're pretty LC now and that works well for now.

[Solong]

Slowly I am learning that I owe no one an explanation for my decisions. When I get that urge to explain, I remember that it is likely my action is seeking one of two things: 1) to be soothed or 2) validation for my decision. Neither of which I truly need from others.

Protect yourself in the first place by not opening yourself up to others' through unnecessary explanations. And at the end of the day, if you REALLY need 1 or 2...just come here and we'll provide that for you.

[fkpp]

This is kind of new to me as our il has just in the last couple years shown their real self.  But I have always kept it to myself to protect my family member's privacy who is married to il.  I do have one friend who deals with the same thing in her family and we use each other as sounding boards.  Really the only reason to share with anyone is to get support for yourself, or it should be anyway.  So find someone who is in a similar situation and be there for each other.  It's very possible that your il will "out" themselves eventually.

[Spirit in the sky]

Hi Nire16

I'm following your post with interest as I am in the same situation. I made a brief comment about how difficult my NMIL is to my female boss. And she instantly jumped to my MIL's defence, saying she was probably just a devoted mother who wanted the best for her sons.

I have always suspected my boss was udn and this was a red flag. Some people are not safe people to talk to, I won't be mentioning my MIL again. But I do have friends who have difficult MILs not to the extent of mine but they do listen and understand. I have discovered I need to find safe people I can talk to, this forum has been a blessing.

What I am trying to say is some people won't understand so probably no point trying to explain yourself. And honestly you shouldn't have to, I know it's difficult when you feel others are judging you. It's a minefield of emotions, I totally get it.