FOG vs Love

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Spring Butterfly

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FOG vs Love
« on: May 04, 2015, 06:12:20 AM »
Pondering the thought that love does not come from a place of fear, obligation or guilt.

Fear: distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.

Obligation: something by which a person is bound or obliged to do certain things, and which arises out of a sense of duty or results from custom, law, etc.

Guilt: feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.

Love, on the other hand is profound tender, affection for another person, a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection.


Fear is not love. Obligation is not love. Guilt is not love. They are emotions motivating actions from a place of 'I have to' rather than 'I want to'.

Yet toxic people seem satisfied to have others respond and comply out of fear, obligation or guilt. It doesn't matter how we feel, they've gotten their way. We've done what they wanted. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter that we've done something for them out of some sense of obligation, because they guilt trip others into compliance, because they huff and puff until out of fear of reprisal we comply.

Love doesn't matter? Or do they perceive or fool themselves into thinking we complied out of love? Who knows the toxic mind and that's a good thing. But to be satisfied with FOG instead of love, How sad. How terribly sad.

At least we can get to the point of being able to choose not to feel fear, obligation, guilt. We are individuals with freedom of choice, we just don't always know that when we begin our journey Out of the FOG because the FOG hides love.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:15:30 AM by Spring Butterfly »
each and every contact with a PD person results in damage. Plan accordingly and make time to heal. See Toolbox for tips.

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Empty Shell

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2015, 09:09:21 AM »
IME, pwPDs don't come close to understanding love in the way a non understands it. For low-functioning pwPDs especially, FOG is love. And since (to them) feelings are facts...
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you might find, you get what you need...

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Inurdreams

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2015, 09:57:30 AM »
They do not care what we feel, only what we do.

I agree, Spring, I would not want anyone doing anything for me out of FOG.  I would get absolutely no pleasure from it.  If someone can't do something for me because they truly want to, then it's just not worth it to me.

But PDs don't care how they get what they want, as long as they get it.
Peek not through the keyhole lest ye be vexed. - Stephen King


Response to a Flying Monkey:  Apparently you are suffering under the delusion that I give a damn.

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Bloomie

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2015, 10:07:16 AM »
Love, on the other hand is profound tender, affection for another person, a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection.

Fear is not love. Obligation is not love. Guilt is not love. They are emotions motivating actions from a place of 'I have to' rather than 'I want to'.

I believe you have described something that has become a deep spiritual truth for me, Spring Butterfly. I have learned that fear and love cannot coexist toward another inside of me. I cannot freely love someone if the relationship is fundamentally based in fear or FOG. One of the most humbling moments for me on the journey has been to realize that the things I was doing out of what I sincerely believed was "love" in PD relationships was, in some cases, done out of FOG - not love at all. If I was to truly love another and act from a place of love, I needed to acknowledge and accept the relationship for what it truly was in the clear light of day. Only then could I act from a truthful, loving place, and boundaries have slowly become much easier and more natural because they flow from a heart that is unwilling to engage in relationships insincerely or out of FOG - because that is not truly loving another. In response to this awakening many relationships with PD's in my life have drastically changed to a level of intimacy appropriate to how well they can respect boundaries and manage their emotions in close proximity to me, even whether or not I enjoy them as people (imagine that - exercising my free will like a grown up girl), which to a PD person feels like hate, rejection, dishonor, cruelty, coldness, I have been told as I have stepped back.  :aaauuugh: I hope this rambler makes sense, it's early in my neck of the woods.  :)
 

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Yet toxic people seem satisfied to have others respond and comply out of fear, obligation or guilt. It doesn't matter how we feel, they've gotten their way. We've done what they wanted. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter that we've done something for them out of some sense of obligation, because they guilt trip others into compliance, because they huff and puff until out of fear of reprisal we comply.

Love doesn't matter? Or do they perceive or fool themselves into thinking we complied out of love? Who knows the toxic mind and that's a good thing. But to be satisfied with FOG instead of love, How sad. How terribly sad.

At least we can get to the point of being able to choose not to feel fear, obligation, guilt. We are individuals with freedom of choice, we just don't always know that when we begin our journey Out of the FOG because the FOG hides love.

This has been my experience exactly. To the PD's that are the most problematic in my life right now - the only thing that seems to matter is the appearance of things. If the setting is their idea of correct and how it should be with everyone in their places with bright shining faces that is "family" that is "love" that is what matters. Complying = love. Obeying = love. Paying homage to their place of honor and superiority in the family = love. Giving over control to them of my resources = love. Accepting and overlooking their abusive, invalidating behavior = love. And in my FOG, I am sad to say I participated in this and reinforced this for a long while.

The beauty of coming OOTF has been that I truly am learning how to love and establish relationships that are heathy, reciprocal, and very importantly built from a place of freedom of choice.
Bloomie 🌸
"Some people really don't get it, that we matter as much as they do." Moglow
"It takes emotional maturity to maintain decent relationships." Spring Butterfly

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Grahamcracker

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2015, 10:48:51 AM »
"They do not care what we feel, only what we do."

Inurdreams, I think that captures it very, very well.  Simply no concern as to how I feel about doing something and a lot of pressure to do it "right" e.g. her way.

"(to them) feelings are facts... "

Empty Shell, I have come to learn that the hard way.  Or in another variation, she presumes something to be true, then acts on that presumption as though it were solid demonstrated fact, with no variations or ranges.  Especially when she decides that someone doesn't like her, then decides she hates that person. 
"Wisdom's a gift, but you'd trade it for youth, Age is an honor but still not the truth"  Vampire Weekend.

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Empty Shell

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2015, 11:38:31 AM »
Or in another variation, she presumes something to be true, then acts on that presumption as though it were solid demonstrated fact, with no variations or ranges.  Especially when she decides that someone doesn't like her, then decides she hates that person.

Oh yeah, been through that more times than I can count.
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you might find, you get what you need...

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lavalove

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2015, 01:09:29 PM »
All of the posts in this thread make a lot of sense when interacting with a PD.  I'd like to add a slightly different perspective, although the "feelings create facts" is still pertinent.

My PDexh would seem to care about my feelings toward his wants and needs, but was incapable of truly hearing them.  I would ask him if there was something he would like to talk about, wanted from me, or for his opinion or choice on any matter, and he would simply agree.  He later accused me of not being willing to listen or not being able to talk to me about things, and that I should have been able to read his mind.  It seemed like he had a script in his head about how I was going to react whether or not that was how I would have in reality responded to the situation.  It was very confusing.

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peacefulspirit

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2015, 10:44:33 PM »
My PDexh would seem to care about my feelings toward his wants and needs, but was incapable of truly hearing them.  I would ask him if there was something he would like to talk about, wanted from me, or for his opinion or choice on any matter, and he would simply agree.  He later accused me of not being willing to listen or not being able to talk to me about things, and that I should have been able to read his mind.  It seemed like he had a script in his head about how I was going to react whether or not that was how I would have in reality responded to the situation.  It was very confusing.

WHAT IS THAT????  Today I was told I wasn't listening to him, but in reality, I listened to every word, I simply didn't agree with him.  And I've heard so many times the things that he TELLS me I think and feel when in reality, it never happened.  It's that script in their head!! 

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Spring Butterfly

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2015, 05:41:38 AM »
FOG is love. And since (to them) feelings are facts...
They do not care what we feel, only what we do.
presumes something to be true, then acts on that presumption as though it were solid demonstrated fact, with no variations or ranges. 
seem to care about my feelings toward his wants and needs, but was incapable of truly hearing them. 
in reality, I listened to every word, I simply didn't agree with him. 
Love all this!

And Bloomie, you just blow my mind all the time. Love all you wrote!
each and every contact with a PD person results in damage. Plan accordingly and make time to heal. See Toolbox for tips.

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BetterFuture

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 06:20:54 AM »
"the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house" This is the mantra of all PDs and FOG is their way of keeping their house.
Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one. You cannot make any useful contribution in life unless you do this. Eleanor Roosevelt

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all4peace

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 09:11:19 AM »
Yet toxic people seem satisfied to have others respond and comply out of fear, obligation or guilt. It doesn't matter how we feel, they've gotten their way. We've done what they wanted. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter that we've done something for them out of some sense of obligation, because they guilt trip others into compliance, because they huff and puff until out of fear of reprisal we comply.

Love doesn't matter? Or do they perceive or fool themselves into thinking we complied out of love? Who knows the toxic mind and that's a good thing. But to be satisfied with FOG instead of love, How sad. How terribly sad.
This old thread was recently referenced in a new thread, so I'm responding despite it being so old.

This really resonated. In a talk with ILs recently, I suggested that after a couple months had passed, if our ILs genuinely wanted to spend time with us, and it wasn't out of obligation or duty, then please invite us. I also asked that they be understanding if it didn't work for us, or we weren't ready yet, to give the process time. My MIL immediately and loudly asked if they invited us, we'd come, right? Right?

This is exactly what is referenced above. To her it was more important that we come when invited (even if only out of FOG) than have a healthier freedom to say no if we weren't quite ready yet or available.

WHY would anyone want a relationship based on FOG? It's awkward, painful, meaningless, sad.

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lovely

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 12:08:38 PM »
This is so true!  I have learned a few things too...  ATTRACTION = wow he/she is so great looking, gets a lot of attention, seems admired by others.  This isn't love    INFATUATION = I love how you make me feel, no one has made me feel like this... (all about how good we feel with them)  This isn't love      REAL LOVE = Based on how a person acts, qualities they possess, and how the fit with our value system.  This is love.  When you have this the attraction and feelings develop OVER TIME, not in an instant or few weeks.  If we are drawn in by how good they make us feel, pretty soon they will use this as emotional blackmail and we will be feeling obligation, guilt and a whole host of other negatives.  What someone 'appears' to be isn't important.  Its what they are on the INSIDE, their actions, and moral system that count.  If you feel an instant attraction, if they tell you things you've never heard before, or if they make you feel In a way you have never felt before.... BUYER BEWARE.  We are often groomed to identify PD's by our upbringing and we are attracted to that which we know or have been exposed to.  RUN!!! :0)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:10:18 PM by lovely »

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Mariposa

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 06:35:28 PM »
Since I am sort of wanting to put myself out there after a 20 year marriage of Living in FOG, I've come to realize that in future relationship, I am going to have to ask myself , does any of my partner's actions/words make me feel uncomfortable. I'm scared to put myself out there because I'm afraid of not seeing the red flags or being charmed out of seeing the red flags. I think I need to learn to trust my gut instinct that if I feel uncomfortable at all I am going to have to question the behavior, no matter how early on it is.

I've read a lot about psychopaths, and one thing that is consistent is that they have the uncanny ability to know off the bat who to prey on.  Although, with my personality, I am on the quieter side, but always smiling and responsive to people.  And I guess if that is typically the first impression I give off, I'm easy prey.

I will never be in a relationship where I fear a person again.

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practical

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2016, 02:40:53 PM »
"An intimate relationship is one in which neither party silences, sacrifices or betrays the self and each party expresses strength and vulnerability, weakness and competence in a balanced way." Harriet Lerner

This for me is a definition of the difference between love and FOG, as FOG is never balanced and the self is denied existence.

If Im not towards myself, who is towards myself? And when Im only towards myself, what am I? And if not now, when? (Rabbi Hillel)

"I can forgive, but I cannot afford to forget." (Moglow)

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dead

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Re: FOG vs Love
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 04:45:38 AM »
All of what OP said is true, and I can't help but feel sorry for PDs because I don't think they are capable of experiencing true love for what it is :(

I also think that this is the reason I spent so much time trying to help/change my dad; I felt sorry for him and he played on that pity. I think that pity is another thing you need to watch out for in matters of love and PDs, because it can make you stay when you otherwise wouldn't.