"People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck

[ambivalent1]

Hello all,
There is a book called People of the Lie by m scott peck on the nature of human evil.  i have found various forums and sites that bring the book up but am dissatisfied because they tend to reflect inaccurate statements about the book, people labeing anyone they have problems with as evil, or just a recommendation of the book with no comments in response.
I am wondering if anyone here has read the book and come across people who match quite well the syndrome and charateristics described.  Also i would ask anyone who is using the book to villify someone - even someone with a personality disorder, to be honest with themselves and not post a response which begins and ends with 'yeah person x is evil.
What I'm looking to do either here or maybe be directed to another site where the long list of unanswered questions the author himself says need to be answered  would be discussed.  I have always been interested in such a discussion and surprised he never wrote a follow up work.  I have come across a handfull of people who fit the mold at random who luckily i could observe without having to deal with.  In recent years however, the isse has become far more important because my sister I have very gradually concluded, may very well be a 'person of the lie.'
I mentioned people calling 'toxic' individuals evil and refraining from airing that labeling.  If it appears I am contradicting myself let me say it is not that she has been difficult and i have forced her into the mold of the book.  Quite the opposite, over a long period of time a little warning light went off in my head and all kinds of confusing destructive behavior made me think of the book.  I finally looked at my copy and people who have never heard of the book have made comments that are sometimes actually the exact same words as used in the book.
My ultimate purpose is to do what I can to contain a tremendous amount of ongoing damage she is doing to almost her entire family including me.  No other approach has worked so i thought there might be some discussion of what goes on in such a person's mind and how to at least diffuse the damage.  so anyone who has read or  decides to read the book let me know if you're interested. Thanks.

[ambivalent1]

Hello again!
I thought in advance I'd try and get the ball rolling with some comments.  In the book Peck suggests classifying evil as a personalty disorder.  Specifically as a variant of narcissistic personalty disorder.  It is quite a bit different from the catagory npd already inexistence.  This is what I meant by seeing discussions with inaccurate statements about the book.  narcissists are self absorbed but not the pervasively destructive characters he describes.  He lists traits for the disorder and it is ironic which one makes me so strongly inclined to think my sister fits. All of the traits are personalty characteristics except one which I had never encounterned and seemed quite strange.  Even Peck him says he can't account for it.  Here the traits:
1)consistent, destructive, scapegoating behavior, which may often be quite subtle.
2)excessive, albeit usually covert, intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury
3)pronounced concern with a public image and self image of respectability, contributing to a stability of lifestyle but also to pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings or vengeful motives.
4)intellectual deviousness, with an increased likelihood of a mild schizophrenic disturbance of thinking at times of stress.

This last one always seemed a bizzare additon, or better said the mention of a temporary mild break with relaity seemed odd.  I couldn't see why this would occur and figured if it did occcur it would point to mental illess not evil.  In a further comment he refers to a term which could easily be out of date by modern day standards 'ambulatory schizophrenia.'

Well, my sister had already done many vicious and cruel things combined with freely distorting the truth and the further she was confronted she began to tell what were clearly outright lies that would insult anyone's intelligence including her own.  They rose to the level where they were fabrications of complex supposedly real life scenarios.  I have an aunt with delusional disorder and a few of the things my sister said made me wonder if she had it too and was actually mentally ill and her apparant fabrications were delusions - breaks from reality.  I still consider this a real possibility because only a well trained specialist can really make that diagnosis and people who have it rarely seek help because, since their delusions are real to them, they don't see a problem.  Further those with delusional disorder typically have delusions which are 'persucatory' and a suggestion they are mentally ill is often taken as an attack so it is not the sort of thing i can exactly ask my sister to do.  Whatever the source of her behavior she will be indignant beyond all imagining that she seek any mental health treatment at all.
So I thought further about these fabricated situations.  My sister is very manipulative and intellectually devious. Peck's reference to 'times of stress' refers to various case histories in which people confronted with their lies to the extent they can't escape slip from twisting words to incomprehensable rants were they certainly appear to have 'lost it' to the extant that their mental stability was in question in his mind.  The term 'ambulatory schizophrenia' seems to means that the individual escapes into a temporary psychotic break in times of stress.  In the examples he presents, the stress appears to be the stress of being seen as imperfect - narcissistic injury.
I have come to disagree that there is mental illness present as a nonprofessional.  in his case histories he presents a dynamic of people terrified of imperfection, having as one of many reasons for telling so many lies the desire to prove to themselves they are perfect, and finally since lying is an imperfection of character, lying about there own lies to themselves.  Rereading these histories now with my sister in my mind made me conclude that for the people in the book definitely and for my sister if she is one of them, that the appearance of a temporary mental breakdown is a violent reflex to being cornered by their own lies and escaping not into insanity but defense mechansim in the extreme of simply declaring things to be true.
I assume it's obvious that it's a major dilema having some reason to believe she's mentally ill and some to believe she's cold hearted as hell.  Two very different approaches are obviously needed.  By coldhearted I mean my mother had what they though was rapid onset dementia a year ago.  It turned out to have a temporary cause.  I told my sister that her mother, who she hadn't talked to in years, was declining rapidly and if she had anything left to say she had better say ot soon.  Her answer was an email with no heading, no signature, only the words 'ok thanks.'  She never called my mother.  She lives in another state and communicates with no family member so she would not have any way of knowing it was temporary.  My mother called finally a few weeks ago and so far as i know my sister had every reason to believe she has long since been in a state of dementia. My mother was so upset after the call she won't talk about it.

So that seems to be cruel at best.  Then consider several examples of what for all practical purposes lies.  I am a recovering alcoholic. My sister considers me a drunk who is lying about not drinking despite living out of state with no information.  So saying i'm lying about recovery counts here to me as an excuse to judge.  Then consider that over time she has classified me as a drunk and a drug user.  I never mentioned and never had a drug problem.  Even here she is desperate enough to judge to just wing it on that one. (she later extended it to violent alcoholic and drug addict). 

Now consider this situation : she made the claim to me that I was arrested for buying drugs.  I emailed her asking why she thought this and offering to send her a copy of my official state criminal background check, which would show no record of an arrest.  She ignored the offer to look at that document, and answered my question of where she heard about any arrest with something more than your typical even bold faced lie.  She told me she knew about the arrest because I had called her several days after it happaned!  so she told the person in the very best position to know it never happened that I myself had told her. She then added that things like this were why she never knew when to trust me! This while ignoring completely an offer of a legal record.

Were those the words of a person suffering from delusions and actually remembered that as reality in her mind? or was that manipulation to escape being caught in a terrible lie? I don't know.   Ignoring the background check looks like manipualtion, but of all lies to come up with i wonder if my offer made her go into a sort of panic and make up something literally unbelievable.  It seems like an 'ambulatory break' to me. albeit a sudden and brief one.  Now that your trying to figure this out consider this.  She told my mother on some past occasion on one of her last visits she found out i'd been arrested by my aunt and that i was 'seen' with a known drug dealer.  I left any mention of that out of my letter because i'd become curious by that time as to how she would portray the conversation with my mother.  Now there is a stuation where she's told one lie to my mother, has to know i've heard about it, and is telling an entirely different version to me.  Again mentally ill or extreme 'intellectual deviousness.?'

[Klarity Belle]

Hello Ambivalent1

Sorry to hear about the way your sister is treating you and your mother 

I have heard about this book many times and it is one I keep meaning to get a hold of. I have read 'The Road Less Travelled' by the same author and found that really insightful and helpful in relation to my own healing journey.

It may take time for anyone here that has read this book to post a comment with their views about it and as there are so many hurtful things going on between your sister towards you and your mother right here and now, I wonder if you have considered posting a thread about this in the Unchosen section where more people would read your post and respond with their own experiences and insights?

Now consider this situation : she made the claim to me that I was arrested for buying drugs.  I emailed her asking why she thought this and offering to send her a copy of my official state criminal background check, which would show no record of an arrest.  She ignored the offer to look at that document, and answered my question of where she heard about any arrest with something more than your typical even bold faced lie.  She told me she knew about the arrest because I had called her several days after it happened!  so she told the person in the very best position to know it never happened that I myself had told her. She then added that things like this were why she never knew when to trust me! This while ignoring completely an offer of a legal record.

Were those the words of a person suffering from delusions and actually remembered that as reality in her mind? or was that manipulation to escape being caught in a terrible lie? I don't know.   

I think so many of us here have probably driven ourselves half crazy contemplating similar situations with our PD family members or partners. I wonder if the answer has to be one or the other? Perhaps their behaviours are based in both delusion and manipulation. Would they have any need for the use of manipulation if they didn't hold a delusion that they believed in so deeply they would protect it by any means possible?

Sometimes for our own sanity, we have to step away from the need to have all the answers and focus instead on the boundaries that need to be put in place in order to keep the delusions and manipulations of the PD loved one out of our lives. If they want to weave a web of lies to others outside the relationship, then fine let them but we as individuals do have the choice not to let the madness into our own personal environments. Have you ever considered being no contact with your sister? or if you do choose to keep connection with her, to put boundaries in place that will limit her behaviours? For example when she next lies during a phone call, you could simply say 'if you insist on lying about incidents that never happened I am going to end this conversation', if she then becomes abusive and angry you could say 'I'm not going to continue talking to you when you are angry and abusive towards me, I'm going to hang up now' and put the phone down, if she repeatedly calls back you can ignore the calls or turn the phone off. You do not have to listen to ranting answer phone messages either.

PD's tend to stomp and flare up when someone first sets a boundary with them but if the boundary set is consistent then they soon learn that the person concerned is no longer willing to take their abuse. We have no need to justify ourselves to an abusive/PD person, in doing so it can fuel the endless cycle of senselessness and pointlessness.

Here are some links to information in our resource sections you may find helpful:-

http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonNonBehaviors/Boundaries.html
http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/CircularConversations.html
http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonNonBehaviors/JADE.html
http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/Gaslighting.html 

I'm sure there will be others here who have read People of the Lie and I hope you get some comments on their experiences of the book, in the meantime I hope you have time to check out Unchosen and Working on Us sections too and our resource links in Traits and Toolbox sections are packed with helpful information on how to recognise pd abuse and how to protect ourselves from it.

Welcome to the boards, KB 

[raine]

I haven't read the book, but OMG, points 1 to 4 describe my son to a T! He sounds just like your sister.

''PD's tend to stomp and flare up when someone first sets a boundary with them but if the boundary set is consistent then they soon learn that the person concerned is no longer willing to take their abuse. We have no need to justify ourselves to an abusive/PD person, in doing so it can fuel the endless cycle of senselessness and pointlessness.''

I was relieved to read this, because others have been telling me that I must give in to my NPD son and never dare to accuse, judge, demand, or deny him. This is the first piece of advice that I have read that makes sense and actually gives me some slim hope of maybe finding a way to deal with my son that actually works for me. Thank you so much Klarity Belle!  Now I'm going to read all the links.

[Klarity Belle]

Hi Annie

If you work your way through the Traits and Toolbox sections via the link buttons at the top of the page, you will find so much good information and suggestions both to recognise your son's behaviours and also how to set boundaries and look after you. You are not his emotional punch bag you are his mother but this does not give him the right to exploit you in any way.

I'm not yet aware of your story but if there is even the slightest threat of violence from your son then please be prepared to call the police. This also sets a boundary and sends the message that you will not tolerate abuse.

My heart goes out to you, it must be very difficult to have an Npd child.

[Latchkey]

Hi ambivalent1,

Interesting topic.

I read this book about 20 years ago I think. It described my NSociopathicStepMom so well that it was truly chilling and in many ways a relief.  I have not read it since so I don't remember specifics.

Personally I think using the book as a diagnostic tool is not a great idea. If a behavior is causing others pain or the person exhibiting the behaviors pain then trying to understand the root cause is a losing proposition. What is important is protecting yourself.

I've been looking into the author himself and he had quite a troubled life and so I do wonder if he was in some ways trying to understand his own pathology in this book. I don't want to detract from the discussion by mentioning the author's life but it bears mention.

Latchkey

[1Brightnight]

Excerpt: Evil was defined as the use of power to destroy the spiritual growth of others for the purpose of defending and preserving the integrity of our own sick selves. In short, it is scapegoating. We scapegoat not the strong but the weak. For the evil to so misuse their power, they must have the power to use in the first place. they must have some kind of dominion over their victims. the most common relationship of dominion is that of parent over child. children are weak, defenseless, and trapped in relation to their children. they are born in thrilled to their parents. Its no wonder, then, that the majority of the victims of evil, such as Bobby and Roger (actual case studies in the book), are children. they are simply not free or powerful to escape.

M. Scott Peck, M.D.


Recently read this book. I won't describe it as an easy read...instead I likened it to what one would akin to, what it would feel like... "going down the rabbits hole". I was desperately in search of the name to the face of the madness I was living in on an everyday basis. And, even in finding the terminology, the name, the diagnosis per se, of narcissism, it wasn't just...narcissistic personality to which we all have a certain degree of...it's much more than that.....I

It's their DESIRE, their NEED, their fulfillment, their giddiness, to go out of their way to hide and conceal their motives... is what makes them evil! People of the Lie....it applies to my life, my story.

[1Brightnight]

correction to above.....

children are weak, defenseless, and trapped in relation to their parent. They are born enthralled to their parents.

[OpenHeart]

My T has recommended that I read this book and I guess now is the time to do t.  I know my H has NPD, is very sick and all.  The last woman that I know he was involved with ended up in therapy along with her kids.  Her T said my H is a predator.  Maybe I need to know more about this.  I've avoided it for a long time. 

[OpenHeart]

Okay, just ordered it from Amazon. 

[ClearView]

Spence, Last night, i listened to the entire audiobook in one sitting.

On a visceral level, it explained everything. My mother, unpdbrother, family dynamics, dxnpdh..
and myself, the one who can no longer live the lie.

No way I could address the topic in the way the original poster requested.
Not yet, anyway.
It is powerful.
Now listening to The Road Less Traveled, also by Peck.
Also very enlightening.

[OpenHeart]

It sounds like this book really spoke to you.  We don't like thinking of evil anymore, but it really is out there.  I think I put off reading this book out of fear more than anything.  I'll look forward to if or when you post in depth.      It sounds like you could use a hug after reading the book. 

[ClearView]

Spence     Thank you so much . 
Yes, I don't recommend reading it at bedtime.
I dreamt that npdh came back here, but it wasn't scary.. he was just a shadow, and I thought very clearly - you are not real !  That was it.

The sort of evil I understand Peck to be writing about is not necessarily the stuff of horror movies or sociopathic killers (although some of these people are truly chilling). sometimes it is ordinary, like the every day absence of truth in those who will sacrifice anything (and anyone) in order to maintain their delusions. As invisible as I have always felt to my husband, I now know that i have never been his enemy. It is himself that he despises. I think he sought a symbiosis with me (i know, weird, right?)
....  and that's where it gets really creepy and i don't have the words yet. It is what my mother did. You are either absorbed or you cease to exist. Black hole is a good metaphor for npd.
Edited cuz my phone is spazzing out and not letting me type. Lol

[1Brightnight]

What is it about the word "evil" that sometimes is a hard swallow? I look at the ID channel sometimes..(you know the channel with the crimes stories, documentaries so forth so on). Why is it when a criminal performs an act of violence, rape, murder..etc. etc.. and we veiw that from a distance we can "recognize" the evil? Then how is it when we see that same evil, sneer, smirk on a daily basis in our homes, in our beds..we disregard it as something else? Everything but evil...?

[looloo]

Reading all of the above comments, I wondered to myself if my mother were truly "evil."  I decided that, like everything, there must be a spectrum of evil.  Maybe I'm minimizing things (which SG are known to do), but I think that a person's ambition to do damage should be considered.  My mother, as far as I can tell, didn't have tremendous ambition--not in the way a serial killer does, or a high-stakes con artist who swindles millions, or a politician or religious leader.  She just has to believe that she's right all the time, she has to feel that she's the smartest person in the room, and so conversely, everyone else is wrong and stupid.  Her actions can hurt tremendously, especially when I was a young child, and an adult trying to prove myself worthy.  Yet, her actions were relatively petty and silly -- infantile is a good word to describe it.  Her particular brand of "evil" would never garner her any large scale success, and the only amount of destruction it's done is to our relationship, which she never considered worthwhile anyway.

[OpenHeart]

I've been reading this book and find it very disturbing.  Recently I put it down for a week or so.  Probably won't pick it up until after the holidays are past. 

When I was in counseling dealing with the issues caused by my mothers violence against me, my counselor at that time made a reference to my mother being evil.  I dismissed it at the time thinking the C was perhaps too religious (I didn't know that, just how I explained the comment to myself).  Perhaps she could see something I was too close to to see.? 

[1Brightnight]

 

Malignant Narcissism: Excerpts from M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/Perspectives/MalignantNarcissism.htm#symbiotic

[Latchkey]

Malignant Narcissism: Excerpts from M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/Perspectives/MalignantNarcissism.htm#symbiotic

1Brightnight,

Maybe you could share a little more about this link and how it helped you in your understanding... or how it relates to the discussion of the book here and NPD.

Thanks,
Latchkey

[1Brightnight]

From my point of view.. the view as a Believer in Christ Jesus, the way these quotes taken from the book are broken down makes a whole lot of sense to me. Take for instance.."It is necessary that we first draw the distinction between evil and ordinary sin. It is not their sins per se that characterize evil people...The central defect of the evil is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it.p 69" That's huge! Isn't that the main defect of the narcissist? The refusal to acknowledge their ways? Not some of their ways..ALL of their ways? That they're perfect and everyone else around them has some sort of deficit? Does that not bring to mind a certain "somebody" and the very reasons that 'they' were cast out of heaven due to his pride and selfish desire to be like God, or even surpass God's powers and might? The unbend-able will?

Skip down to... The Narcissist:  Unsubmitted will

If the central defect of the evil is not one of conscience, then where does it reside? The essential psychological problem of human evil, I believe is a particular variety of narcissism....The particular brand of narcissism that characterizes evil people seems to be one that particularly afflicts the will. p 80

Malignant narcissism is characterized by an unsubmitted will. All adults who are mentally healthy submit themselves one way or another to something higher than themselves, be it God or truth or love or some other ideal....They believe in what is true rather than what they would like to be true. (wow)!

In summary, to a greater or lesser degree, all mentally healthy individuals submit themselves to the demands of their own conscience. Not so the evil, however....They are men and women of obviously strong will, determined to have their own way. p 78 Such people literally live "in a world of their own" in which the self reigns supreme. p 162 Can it get any plainer than that?

For me...that pretty much sums it up having dealt with malignant personalities which truly runs in the family. In this same family "tree" I speak of, several have committed murder, with the latest being in FL couple months ago, same family. THAT is not a coincidence! See: Evil in families further down. 

Surely an eye-opener for me!

[1Brightnight]

Another way of putting it....

Once we stop looking for the two headed monsters, the "boogie man in the closet" or a sort of "supernatural force" that can fling you across a room etc; we'll find what true evil looks look, most commonly found........any where God (love, harmony, empathy) cannot reside. Be it person, place or thing. It's only then you can truly "name it" for what it is.

Dr. Peck asked some in the book...  can evil be "cured?" This was a question put forth to other pioneers in the field. Me, I have the slightest clue! But I do believe in my heart of heart, as a born again believer in the most high God...LOVE TRUMPS EVIL every time!!

My 2 cents..