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Show vs teach empathy?

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Firefly:
My NPD husband does so many small things without thought for the rest of us: rearranging/putting away (effectively hiding) our things with no recollection of where things are, making the bed when I am still sleeping at five AM, throwing away my mail as junk without asking (usually not important stuff)....my question is, should we be concerned about treating him the same way back by rearranging back again without talking to him about it since we would be showing him that we think it is alright to act that way, or is there a more effective solution? Talking has limited results.... it seems wrong to act the same way back but would he be capable of learning from it?

Mirrorgirl:
In my experience, people whose brains are wired like this don't usually see the connection when you "reciprocate" their dysfunctional behaviors.  They don't have empathy, so instead of understanding how it feels to you, they only see how it affects them.  As a result, reciprocating seems to only escalate their behaviors.

I have found that the best way to deal with these very annoying habits is to establish boundaries.  I also use a lot of preventative actions.  I try to make sure I get the mail first.  I try not to leave anything out for him to throw away.  I accept that his obsessive need to make the bed with me still in it or reorganize the utensils in the dishwasher or many of the other obsessive/controlling things he does are part of his brain wiring and don't have anything to do with me.  He is not trying to be a PITA.  (well maybe sometimes.....)

When he is calm, he can sometimes be reached by talking, but most of the time, I just use boundaries.  I have accepted that he is oblivious and will not change until he is ready.   I have had to learn how to forgive and just accept that I married someone who doesn't have a heck of a lot of empathy. 

He has other good qualities, so I try to focus on those.  Whenever I do some of my quirky things and he comments about it, I remind him of his annoying habits and try to have a sense of humor about it.  I also say a lot of prayers!

I think the bottom line is that you need to decide what you are willing to live with and communicate that to him.  If it gets to a point where you no longer want to deal with it, you need to make the decision about what you want to do next.

Firefly:
Thanks...your response was helpful in many ways... Let me ask about this part of your response:

"In my experience, people whose brains are wired like this don't usually see the connection when you "reciprocate" their dysfunctional behaviors.  They don't have empathy, so instead of understanding how it feels to you, they only see how it affects them.  As a result, reciprocating seems to only escalate their behaviors."

Is it possible for an NPD to LEARN to see where they should have empathy by putting them into the reverse situation and calmly asking them to understand and own what they are experiencing as a step to understanding how their actions affect others?  My husband does seem to try to learn, but is so blind to it all that it's like trying to teach a dog what a keyboard is for.

mathcorechick:
I think this is an excellent question.  I moved your post to the "Common Behaviors" board where more people will have a chance to see it and add to the discussion.

Is it possible to re-wire our brains to be more empathetic? No matter if someone is considered BPD or not, I think the only way to answer that is to ask in return "What is the motivation to change?".  If someone isn't motivated to change, then they usually don't act upon a stimulus.  To me. dealing with a BPD is like dealing with a small child or a difficult student who needs clear and consistent expectations, as well as enforceable consequences for their actions, also it's good to have both positive and negative feedback, trying to give more positive then negative or rephrasing things as strong ' I messages'.  If the boundaries are met and held in a way that motivates someone to change a response to elicit a more positive response.  In that respect, using a combination of firm boundaries and positive feedback can help motivate someone who wants to change to change their behaviors.

But that's the hard part- motivating someone who wants to change is easy.  I know with my real mother, none of this would ever work and each attempt would either lead into a circular conversation about why I didn't thank her before or a flat out screaming match because I used an "I message" and stuck up for myself.

It's almost like you constantly have to model the desired behavioral outcome, which is both physically and emotionally exhausting at times.  Let us know if you try any of the suggestions and how they worked for you.

Varja:

--- Quote from: Firefly on July 16, 2012, 04:29:16 PM ---Is it possible for an NPD to LEARN to see where they should have empathy by putting them into the reverse situation and calmly asking them to understand and own what they are experiencing as a step to understanding how their actions affect others?
--- End quote ---

I suppose anything is possible concerning human behaviors. Unpredictability seems to be a feature of many mental disorders.

I've never read an account or a case-study of a person diagnosed with NPD learning empathy, however. With PD's we do want to avoid encouraging their worst behaviors with intermittent reinforcement, but like Mirrorgirl shared - I also don't believe that modeling the appropriate behavior is an effective vehicle for change.

Think about it like this . . . Were this possible, then treatment to overcome this speficic disorder would simply become an exercise in exposing the afflicted person to emotionally healthy people. AFAIK, this does not work.

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