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Go see my recent thread about photo-hoarding, if you want my experience of it.

A narcissist won't part with photos and won't give you anything of value, although they might pass on something they perceive as junk (because you're worth it) so if it happened to me today, I would arrange a friendly visit for coffee & ask to see the photos while you are there. They do like to show off that they have stuff and you don't so if you grovel enough (take a cake, spoil the cow) she may just bring them out. When she does, pull out a scanning device or a camera & tell her (don't ask, just tell) you can scan them, there and then.

She won't be pleased that you've gotten round her need to control, manipulate & generally **** you around, but at least you'll have some sort of copy of the photos/painting.

I'm really sorry for what you are going through, I've been through this with my FOO. They really are unbelievable. I had some great insight & advice offered at my posts (see the one on with-holding, too) that helped to put it in perspective.

It's so childish, but that's what the N is.
I forget that with N-aunt, because she's put so much effort into conditioning me that me & my sisters are useless, irresponsible, can't be trusted - etc etc etc. I'm nearly 50 and I still have to consciously remind myself that N-Aunt's attitudes are simply her defences for protecting her from seeing what a nasty self-centred cow she actually is.

Chosen Relationships / Interrogations
« Last post by cmh1984 on Today at 02:40:03 PM »
Do you endure interrogations?

I do, regularly:

him: "What time did you get to work yesterday?"
Me: "7:30, remember I got out at 4:30, that's why"
him: "What time do you get out today?"
Me: "I can leave at 4:30 if you want to pick me up, I could have J*** drive me home, but that won't be until 5:30 or 6:00"
him: "You know if you tell me one more time that J***will drive you home at six and don't show up here until 7:00 I am going to come out there and ask J*** myself if something is going on, and if I don't like his answer he's gonna be sorry."
me: "I always let you know if I am waiting for him to finish working and I always let you know when we leave the office"
him: "Yeah well I see your stupid messages between you and him and your messages to your boss that you are going to be late because J*** had to stop at the shop."
me:  "I wasn't late, I was still early to the office, I got to the shop at 7:30 and let my boss know where I was so I was on the clock."
him: "You didn't even leave the shop until after 8AM, how could you be on the clock if you don't work at the shop?"
Me: "I don't know, because I said so!"
him: "Don't you understand how your odd behavior at home and with your family makes me question you on these things that don't make sense.  I ask you a question and you can't even answer it straight."

Keep in mind my office is a 40 minute drive from my house, and I am required to text him when I leave and if he isn't home when I get there, I have to text him that I am home.  My texts between me and J*** who drives me to and from work regularly consist of him telling me hes on his way, me acknowledging with an OK or Sweet, and him saying I'm here.   

*EXASPERATION!!!!!!!*  For heavens sake!!!!!!

Then when I am audibly insulted and irritated he is in awe that I am "talking to him that way"....  :-X
Thank you all for the affirmation and advice. I know the gf was caught off guard and she is not accustomed to dealing with a PD. She thinks my mom is bipolar, but she is most definitely NOT...she is uBPD plus probably more than that should she ever actually get a diagnosis. So...it's pervasive and they are niave to her tactics. I feel badly for gf too...it's not easy to be in that kind of situation.

And...I think I've learned what to share and what not to share. Still annoyed though!
Separating & Divorcing / Re: Feeling anxious
« Last post by lightupthere on Today at 02:35:25 PM »
There is so much abuse going on here. Will he agree to leave? Do you want it to be a 6 month separation, then re-assess, or a permanent  split?

Can you get primary custody? Will he want 50/50?
Hi everyone.  I just came on this website after seeing it referenced here and there.  I don't want to make this intro terribly long but I am the oldest of five. I was a parentified child with a narcissistic mother.  We are in nc due to her continual need to belittle and blame me.  My siblings were a various order of the golden child.  I was the scapegoat.  She created major rifts in my FOO.
I have five children and have been married almost 13 years.  Some of my earliest memories of wondering what I did wrong was when we were dating and he would get very angry/jealous over little things.  After we got married things escalated.  I felt very much that I was placed on a pedestal and then I would fall off of that pedestal.  He would snoop such as read my private journals and then when he would get angry at me for something that I didn't even know I did he would bring it up.  Over the years he repeatedly has threatened divorce and it would end with me having to reassure him.  He would then tell me his greatest fear was me leaving him. 

Time and time again he would get upset at me and I wouldn't know till he was really angry and he would throw it at me.  For example we were walking down the street.  Later on he was angry at me and brought it up and said that I had let go of his hand because we walked by a group of guys sometime along our walk.  I didn't even know what he was talking about.  I told him if I had I was probably getting my hair out of my face.

Anyway everything came to a head last summer when he threatened me yet again with leaving me and I turned around and agreed.  He was stunned and then he pretty much went nuts.  He was angry for a very long time.  He talked me out of it, promised he would change, told me he never realized, but changed that after I told him I have told him many times already this and that, and then he said well I just need to remind him....

So he stopped drinking, saw a therapist, helped around the house more.  After about three months he told me the therapist said he didn't need to go anymore because he already had the tools.  So over the next few months he slowly stopped doing everything the therapist told him to do (exercise, no alcohol, affirmations, etc).  Soon he was back to coming from work, putting headphones on for the tv and pretty much staying there, till late at night and then going to bed. 

Sex is a big issue.  If three days go by he starts getting very angry and frustrated.  He tells me he thinks up ways to get back at me because he feels I am holding out on him.  I am not that kind of person. I don't get revenge or think up ways to get back at people.  I forgive and forget way to much.  So sex has become something that is very negative to me after hearing this for thirteen years and seeing his change towards me.  It got to the point where I just felt like an object to him.  So I would make sure that not more than three days would go by without him having sex just so he wouldn't get moody and take it out on the kids by yelling, etc.  I realize this isn't healthy...

Anyway after last summer and him getting really drunk a couple of times and calling me all kinds of names and threatening me something inside me broke.  I just became more numb and feel like I couldn't deeply connect with him anymore.  I agreed to give him another chance though and hoped for the best.  It has been a year now since then.  A couple of weeks ago he threatened to leave me again because I wanted some space physically (only the second time in thirteen years I have wanted some space, the first time was last summer).  He had gone back to drinking and this time hiding it from me, coming from work and ignoring most everything for hours while he watched tv, etc.  He packed a bag at 1am and told me he was leaving and he was going to quit his job.  We have five children and currently depend on his income so these threats always work with me.

I asked him to come back inside and he wanted a lot of reassurance first.  Of course he ended up getting what he wanted.  Since then he has been on super good behavior (helping out a lot more around the house and with the kids without me asking-usually I have to ask).  He even decided to go see another therapist to figure out what is going on.  The thing is though it is everyone elses fault, at work he is still angry at his boss for punishing him two months ago over something that was his fault.

He blames me on and on.  You know the gist.  For me I am struggling tremendously.  I am worn out and exhausted completely.  I wanted to make this marriage work for so long.  Now I still want it to work just because partly I am not a quitter (mostly because I don't want to disrupt my childrens security-right now there still pretty oblivious as we don't discuss things in front of them), but I am not willing to put in anymore effort at this point.  I am so so tired and worn out.  I ask myself is marriage suppose to be this much work?  I want to feel in love and loved.  Not love taken away if I don't do what they want.  How can I feel loved by a man who tells me the thinks up ways to get back at me for perceived wrongs?  I just can't comprehend how an adult can think this way, especially towards someone they are suppose to love.

Currently I am preparing for the future and being able to take care of my five children financially.  He told me last summer when we were on the brink of divorce that he would quit his job and leave the country.  He tells me in his good part of the cycle that he wouldn't, but I don't trust him at all when he is angry and I don't feel like I can rely on him. 

So right now he is in the good part of his cycle and I find myself wishing for the bad part to hurry and come so I can get it over with.  Sometimes when he is so nice and he is the man I thought he was I find myself getting confused and second guessing myself.  At the same time I am constantly hyper-vigilant, having to weigh everything I say and do because I know him so well...for me the hardest part is the constant suspicion, jealousy and having to constantly reassure him.  It gets really exhausting.  I feel like I have six kids instead of five.  But I also feel that he causes me more stress and is more draining than my five kids combined.   Sometimes he accuses me of loving the kids more than him.  I have to point out to him that everything I do for them I do for him as well.  I have to list things to show him that I love and that I try to show him....so sometimes I am afraid to love my (our) kids to much in front of him so he doesn't get more jealous.  I realize this is not healthy at all.

Thanks for listening and I am looking forward to having some time to look around and read your stories.

I went through this with my son who is now 28 years old.

The first thing you need to do is take him to a psychologist or psychotherapist who will talk with him and then based upon the conversation with your son (trust me, it doesn't take long for the flags to stick out to a psychologist) and the concerns from you as his mother, he will administer a psychiatric evaluation which is a series of tests given to your son to pinpoint behaviors which may be associated with certain mental disorders, etc.

My son had his first evaluation at age 6 when he tried to pull a tooth that wasn't ready for the tooth fairy.  He seriously messed his mouth up and said he didn't feel the pain.  That begin my long journey of 16 psychiatric hospitalizations. therapy sessions, and medicinal therapy as well.   By the age of 17, he was diagnosed with BPD with sociopathic traits.  It took a very long time to get to that diagnoses, because typically a diagnoses is hypothetical and it takes a history to compile behaviors, etc. to come up with a true diagnoses.  He is now 28, committed to a state hospital from jail because he is not competent to stand trial.  He's been in jail for the past two years for threatening to kill 3 police officers.  He's gone back and forth from jail to the hospital, but now it looks like he will be in the hospital for a very long time.  At least I know he's safe.  My point is, don't  be too quick to put a label on him as many diagnoses can emulate another one.  Due to your extreme concern for him, he will need to go to a psychologist or even a psychotherapist for you to get started and to get the true help you need.

I hope this helps you.
Committed to Working On It / Re: Why Am I So Angry?
« Last post by TurnThePage on Today at 02:25:49 PM »

But I can definitely understand New Life being unhappy... you're still shell-shocked from all the previous years of what he's said and done.  You're probably still uncomfortable and walking on egg-shells waiting for it to all happen again and again.  You're probably still distrustful that it's actually getting better.  I think it'll be time and your own counseling in order to deal with it.

I know that I still get hopeful when a good day comes, only to have it dashed a day or two, or even and hour or two, later when the hammer comes down again.  I can feel my hopes fading every time.  Eventually hope will give way to distrust and fear.


Hang in there Long Time!

You are right, someone who truly loved you could and would never say such things to you.

That was what put me over the edge with my BPDh...he actually told me "I hope you die". And when I told him that I was having a lot of trouble forgiving him for that he said, "you should kill yourself". He made a point of telling me that I'm being "a little dramatic", they're just words, it's not like he beat me.

The truth is, physical wounds will heal given time...emotional wounds require much more to allow them to heal. You need to heal those wounds for yourself and your children. Don't let him make you feel bad about seeing a T, or anything else that you need to do to get yourself healthy...physically and emotionally.
Narcissism Support Resources

I think that the exhortation of "no contact" with the narcissist, although rightful in its claim, loses something in the execution. If you begin with "no contact" as a strategy or goal, you are likely to fail. Your feelings and belief system will conquer you. "No contact" is not a must per se; it is something that you find yourself desiring because now you have the narcissist's number. No self-respecting person, and that means, all of us, wants to continue playing with a powerful and sadistic 3 year old. So, your nature will take its course.

If you don't first begin to study and recognize the narcissist within that fancy dancing package, then by focusing on establishing "no contact" at the cost of the complexity of what's happening to your psyche, you will continue to fight your feelings (see, Ten Ways to Freedom from Narcissists) and not the narcissist and their pull.

The more you get to know what they're doing, what they are really like, see it for yourself with a clear eye, the more you observe and catalog, the greater becomes the desire to not inhabit the narcissist's planet any longer.

If they are physically abusive, then, yes, of course, leave if you can. If they have made you so sick that you're ready for intensive care, and you can manage it, then leave. Seek help and support and a safe place. Self preservation supersedes anything else. But it seems that a lot of relationships with narcissists are somewhere in between, often ambiguous and ambivalent, based on exceptionally intense feelings from the victim, and feelings of loyalty and commitment, among others- the "shoulds".

Yes, if you can manage "no contact" because you feel in your gut it is healthier for you than the narcissist, then act upon it. But more powerful and longlasting is the organic desire for no contact, the repulsion and indignity felt and known at the thought of someone trying to suck you in, whether this narcissist or any other, because finally you are beginning to see "a soul with no footprints", the predictable groteseque within.

If you remain resolved, the temptation to listen to and believe the narcissist lessens over time and in its place grows a steadfastness that will no longer allow this misshapen freak to dictate the terms of our inner and outer lives. And the reason you now can use that word, "allow", is because now you have a real choice in a way you never had when your mind and emotions were held in thrall while being expertly and methodically raped.

In my experience, people keep going back to the narcissist because their feelings and belief system are continuously manipulated and transfigured into the narcissist's desire or fantasy. Narcissists can be a convincing lot and our own beliefs and feelings find reinforcement, not only from them, but from ourselves. "No contact" is the brute force attempt, in my estimation, to separate from the beautiful illusion so hankered for that they sell us, thinking it reality. When in fact, what we need to do, is gradually separate from the actual and absolute truth, what they really are and do. And to see the unholy damage they leave in their wake.

I believe that healing from trauma is a process of transformation, and cannot be forced, willed or manipulated. "No contact" has grown into a huge, mythological chimera that claims to cure most ills. It doesn't. It's only a part of the equation. Work on healing you during NC also.
Separating & Divorcing / Re: What else could possibly happen???
« Last post by blunk on Today at 02:11:52 PM »
I am so thankful for the support and encouragement that I receive here, as well as from my family, friends, and co-workers. I am slowly getting around to talking to everyone individually. I have a lot of shame for allowing this to go on for so long, and for not reaching out to the people I know I can depend on. I feel like people might not understand the PD side of things and either think I am making things up that couldn't possibly be true, or they will question why I didn't leave long ago.

It is so hard to keep saying no, you think he would get tired of making me say it. He has said at least 10 times...this is the last time that I will ask...yeah right!
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