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She's usually good for a bit then starts to say things like, "I got an email from so and so today and thought you might want to read it.  Should I send it?" or she will just fwd an email and start her email with something like "I know you don't like me to forward emails but ......."   


enMom pulls stuff like this with me.  It won't be about forwarding emails, but other boundaries or requests I've repeatedly and clearly made.  She'll listen for a few weeks, then I'll get the "Would it be okay if...   I'd like to..." asking for permission.  I'll say no, no, no with some no on top for good measure.  Before long she'll go ahead and do whatever it was she wanted.  The last time I bothered to call her out on it, she said, "Oh, I wasn't sure if I was allowed to."   :violin:

Now I do my best to MC that behavior.  enMom will eventually do what she wants to do.  I cannot control her.  Whatever gains she gets from her passive-aggressive behaviors outweigh her caring about my reactions to them.  I try to detach and not give her any sort of additional payoff for her nonsense. 

Interacting with my partner's healthy FOO who communicates clearly and respectfully is a refreshing change!
Unchosen Relationships / Re: well this should be interesting
« Last post by betta fish on Today at 02:01:13 PM »
Coming OOTF is not a one step process and it can be very irritating and frustrating to those who see the game from the outside.  I was your DH and now my brother is the one who is in your DH's position (hope that's clear!?).  My DH was very patient with me.  When he wanted to ring my neck he held back and waited for me to fall and then he picked me up.  Easier said than done, but knowing DH would be a source of comfort and support was a great help in my process. 

You can't make him come OOTF even though you wish you could.  He will take 5 steps forward, 2 back, one forward, 3 back.... in the end he will keep moving forward at his own pace.  It will eventually dawn on him what he needs to do.  He will hope she has changed when she is good, as he has now.  And then MIL will do something to snap him out of it.

I try to support without judgements when it comes to my brother.  He still hopes a good, loving and kind mother lives inside our uBPDm.

Take care of yourself.  You have shown a great ability to disassociate from her.  Keep doing what you are doing.
sj - fear of the unknown is normal and healthy - just don't let it rule your whole world.  It may be difficult but force yourself to only cross the bridge you are at - those future bridge you are worried about may not even be bridges - they could be a magic carpet that will help you get where you are going aided by kind and helpful people and/or you may not even have to cross those - a different path may present itself.  This may sound pretty geeky - (Harry Potter reference  :bigwink:)  Help will always come to those who ask.  Don't be afraid to ask - if you are worried about paying it back - just think of paying it forward to someone else who will need help.  The confidence will come - slowly, but it will happen.

There was a movie that helped me with a breakthrough - The Shawshank Redemption... My divorce was like Andy escaping through the sewage pipe.  He had a bag of clean clothes and a bar of soap to clean himself off once he reached the stream.  It was nasty while he was going through the pipe, but he got through, cleaned himself up, and wound up living in paradise.  That was so true of my experience - a lot of shyte to swim through, but a good ending.  Be kind and patient with yourself - you deserve it.   :bighug:
Unchosen Relationships / Re: If you knew then what you know now...
« Last post by bruisermel on Today at 01:54:22 PM »
awesome thread, thank you everyone for sharing...this is eye opening and validating for a newbie still kinda FOG-GY head!!
Unchosen Relationships / Re: Funny Stories about uNPD Parents
« Last post by harrieth on Today at 01:54:12 PM »
Kizzie! That is sooooo awesome. I am laughing right now, thank you for that.

My mom returned a pillow I had "embroidered" for her in kindergarten (it was just yarn sewn through fabric). The pattern I had done was of a flower and it said "I Love You Mom."

She gave it to me last year because...I have a burning desire to own something I made for HER in kindergarten. I think we can all assume that was my inheritance, yes?  ;)
Separating & Divorcing / Re: Incredible Change in BD Wife
« Last post by whatisnormal on Today at 01:52:32 PM »
Let me do a simple math for you:

5 Weeks = .0137 Years

So that is .01 years of good behavior VS. 10 Years of bad behavior. In other words, your wife has been on her best behavior continuously for .01/10 = .1% of your marriage  :thumbdown:

In non-math terms, 5 weeks is way too short compared to 10 years of abusive behavior. It is probably a hoover.
Hi Mistakesweremade - The cycle we see is that when my M is getting bored she will ramp up the NPD behaviours - needs to feed I guess.  Once she "feeds" she's generally OK for a week or so. 

I wouldn't be surprised if we charted it it would have a time-related rhythym.  Interesting idea!

So sorry.  Their are lots of books on alcoholism that are age appropriate for your grandchild.  The important thing is to share age appropriate information.  Show him empathy, his feelings of anger and unfairness are valid even if misplaced.  Your GS lost a mom and a dad and probably has abandonment issues.  I would consult with a therapist ASAP and get advice on how to deal with it all for you and your GS.

Good luck to you and take care of yourselves.
Unchosen Relationships / Re: well this should be interesting
« Last post by SpringButterfly on Today at 01:43:49 PM »
reward her good behavior with doing things for her or spending time with her
:no: this is called enmeshment. Good behavior is rewarded with ... Nothing ... Because good behavior is just supposed to be, period.

Bad behavior results in repeat of stated boundaries. Good behavior results in keeping boundaries. Boundaries aren't movable any more than the property lines around your house. This is why I was asking about operant conditioning. I see rewarding good behavior with increased contact as re-enmeshing.

Can we choke Mr Sweet P? Where's the group choke emoji?  :tongue2:

"No I don't understand, YOU have a baby on the way, YOU have ton of stuff here to get done before, etc" Its not about choosing between you and mil, it's about choosing to handle his responsibilities at his own home. If he took care of his own stuff at home first I'm sure there's little time left over for mommy. 

WI you always have good boundary advice. it is hard core, but it might be necessary. my only fear with the boundaries you've outlined is feeling like i was manipulating him into doing what i want. i REALLY want him to come to the answer on his own so he can't blame anything on me. can i really deny her access to my baby?
Yes you can. And BTW, this is *almost* perfectly describes where DH was with me prior to my OOTF enlightenment. Only when I got the full and total pile of engulfed foo poo on top of me did I nearly suffocate to death. DH let me vent but just shrugged - he didn't really realize what he was doing now that we talk about it, but he was pretty much just speechless and had absolutely nothing to contribute as far as advice.

ETA - I just finished reading all the posts and realize you replied to his email and he replied back. However, it's still not about him choosing between you and his mommy in my mind because he will absolutely choose you *if* you say something to him. He's demonstrated that choice before. It's seems more about you being put in the position of pointing out the fact, bringing things to his attention, and making him choose.

The only thing I can think of from my own history is you as an individual setting boundaries for you and your child, and as a couple setting expectations between you and DH. My own DH did this with me on many occasions, and yes it may be viewed as controlling buy some but it worked for us.

For example, we as a couple agreed our disagreements or imperfections be kept between the two of us not shared with anyone in our families.

Another example was, since we are in contact, if my mum was in attendance at a gathering, what he said goes and I was not to take her side if there was a disagreement between the two of them. She had actually manipulated and pitted me against him regarding his preferences behind his back coming to me to get permission to something he had already said no to - it's like dealing with a child pitting mum against dad and getting her way. The rule was his house his rules and if she asked anything I was to tell her see DH.

I'm telling you from experience hard core is probably your best bet right now. Unemotional. Matter of fact. BTW this is how it is.

sorry if I got a bit carried away - post longer than I realized and perhaps seeing so much of myself in your DH I soooo feel for you!
We have an ongoing prediction in our house, more of a bet really. I have told my M not to forward email from other people to me because it was written to her and is private.   She's usually good for a bit then starts to say things like, "I got an email from so and so today and thought you might want to read it.  Should I send it?" or she will just fwd an email and start her email with something like "I know you don't like me to forward emails but ......."   

So we bet now on how long it will be before she starts to sneak around the line or just step across it outright.  I was telling my T the other day that it's not that I don't draw lines in the sand for my NPD FOO, it's that they can't or won't adhere to them so we constantly have to redraw them. It's exhausting and the reason so many of us go LC or NC.

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