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Religious & Spiritual Discussion / Re: Is Chaos Evil?
« Last post by TrueToMyself on Today at 10:24:16 AM »
Are you asking "Does chaos equate to evil?" 

No, I don't think it does.   The dictionary defines chaos as "complete disorder and confusion".  Synonyms include disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom. 

The dictionary defines evil as 1. something morally bad or wrong; wickedness  2. causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful

An example of chaos would be the mayhem that ensued after 9/11.  The terrorists that were responsible for 9/11 were evil,
and their terrorists' acts led to chaos.

A better question might be "Does evil cause chaos?" 

I would answer "Yes, it most certainly can."  TTM
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Working on Us / It hurts, it burns!
« Last post by Hope19 on Today at 10:14:47 AM »
It's been 9 weeks and 4 days since I last saw him, since I decided I had enough. It feels okay some days but there are some other when I feel so sad, so low  :'( It feels like a burning pain, I miss him so much... I can't really make sense of this; I know I made the best decision, but I miss his company, the good moments  :sadno:

I truly loved him, he was the man I had dreamt of having a family with... I feel so broken, I know I have to be patient but I'm struggling, I feel so much pain  :'( :'( This is so hard  :sadno: On the one hand, I have to accept I have lost the man I love (is it really love?) and on the other I have to make sense of my contradicting feelings... I just need some words of hopes.

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The Welcome Mat / 35 years of being sabatoged by husband
« Last post by hadenoughcrap on Today at 10:09:36 AM »
I don't even know where to begin. I have been manipulated & sabotaged, isolated from any friendships I develop,have cleaned up & covered, stopped getting angry many years ago. Am now in total avoidance mode. My concern is my adult children. I pretty much stay to be a spy for them-he is entwined in their lives & fucking with them. I stay to listen in on the endless bullshit phone calls to hundreds of people over the years, concocting schemes that land the fallout on others. Yes I am trapped. Finances and credit ruined,huge back tax bills,nothing to my name. Just need some validation - every move I make is watched & judged. Every conversation monitored. I have no privacy. Am told everything I think, feel,am is wrong. I could go on-sure I will be posting more in future. Sorry just venting. Hope there are others on here who can relate. Trying to get my identity/sense of self back.
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Parents' Discussion / Re: Coming up on 15 years of NC with PDd
« Last post by Bloomie on Today at 09:58:41 AM »
OpenHeart - I am thankful you reached out here and shared this very difficult circumstance and this time of grieving you are going through. It must be so hard to even share here for you. The strength and steadfast wisdom you show in your responses indicates years of sincere hard work and effort to get to a place of acceptance for what you cannot change. Please know you are supported and cared for. Our hearts are with you.

I wanted to invite you, WeAreAllUnique, to begin a thread about your own healing journey and experiences here on the Parents' Board. I think we all can agree that the experience of having to make the choice to go NC with a family member, or for a family member to discard us, is one of the most devastating and painful experiences human beings will ever experience.  Both sides of that coin are a losing proposition and terribly difficult.

Our emotions do run high and there are deep pockets of pain surrounding these issues. I am thankful for this kind and civil discourse that has taken place in thread here and feel it is in large part due to the maturity and empathy that you bring, OpenHeart, from a life time of difficulty that you have worked through. Where others may be reactive and easily prompted to discord you have developed a lovely ability to promote understanding and peace as we all struggle and learn and grow here together. Thank you for that! I have learned greatly from your example today and I appreciate you.
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Hi Digital-

You're not crazy at all - PD's have a tendency of playing the victim card and typically don't accept responsibility of their own actions. Therefore you become the villain - smear campaigns begin and other relatives or friends get pulled in. 

I've had this same experience recently - my aunt has given into the storyline presented by my parents.  If it's told enough with little to no objection - it becomes their reality. 

I did the same as you did when I found out I was being smeared - shared with my aunt a letter I sent and one received by my parents.  Three independent T over the past 2 years - I moved and had to find a new T - have shared their concerns related to my parents response to a non-accusatory, decent letter.  My aunt defended the response with a comment that it's just how my dad gets when he's angry. 

I came to realize that I have become the villain.  I created a boundary a year ago that I didn't  want to discuss my parents or the situation with her, she has violated that three times and I just reinforce the boundary and never engage.  I refuse to JADE and go into circular arguments, which prevents me from sharing my perspective - it took me a long time to realize this is for the best.  I also realized that my aunt just as damaged as my parents .

Recently, I tried to make plans to visit her. I was met with a rejection that I've made my parents suffer enough and she won't be part of their suffering by getting together until I meet certain requests. That's fine-she's created the boundary, I'll respect her wishes. It just shows me that despite her stating she hasn't taken sides, she has.  I have enough loved ones - FOC, siblings, other relatives that have been shunned, and a great group of caring friends - to know I need to let go and move to MC/VLC with people who use absolutes and either have their own PD's or a bad case of fleas. 

So my advice to anyone dealing with the situation is to do what it looks you did-don't try to JADE-set your boundaries. Be firm with those boundaries.  If you want a relationship, tell the person that you are not willing to discuss the situation about your relatives you have issue with, it's too complex and painful.  If they can respect that and your other boundaries, great. If not, I'd suggest starting to move towards MC/VLC-if they continue to persist, it might be worth it to drop the rope.

Through it all - be kind to yourself, love yourself and remember that as long you are reflective, recognize your own mistakes and work to improve yourself - you'll start to attract the people you want in your life.  Wishing you all the best on this journey.
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I always thought my NPD father was a little eccentric.  Last year, I finally realized that he had NPD, which he was actually diagnosed with 30 years ago.  At first, I didn't want to believe it, but my mother confirmed a psychiatrist diagnosed him and he clearly has it.

Recently, I have started to research ASPD.  My father checks almost every single box--bad behavior and disrespect of laws, social norms since he was a child.  He actually brags about it. 

My teenaged sons saw that my dad's behavior was toxic before I did.  I think we get better at denial as we get older. 
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Do you have an EAP at work, through your benefits? This is the perfect opportunity to use it. I don't have advice because I think it's best to have one on one counseling. That person would be able to give you specific advice relating to your issues/past, communication style, etc.

Thank you. I never even thought of that. I'll give that a try.
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Hello everyone,
My "best" friend and I have known each other for about 17 years - since college. Our relationship continued throughout our twenties where we would drink and do drugs together. In our early thirties, we got sober but continued to have a very co-dependent relationship. Since getting sober and practicing a lot of self-care, I started to notice that she rarely, if ever, takes responsibility for her side of the street, ex: My husband and I visited her and her husband several years ago. She and I got into a disagreement. I apologized for my part (snapping at her and being passive aggressive) but she never did (texting her husband about me snapping at her which got both of our husbands involved and not being honest with me about her hurt feelings when I apologized, acting as if everything was ok but then complaining to her husband and my husband about my behavior.) This unhealthy pattern has continued throughout our friendship. A year ago I began intense therapy to unravel and cope with the unhealthy patterns that have developed over the years between me and my UBPD mother. Since then, I have become stronger and now recognize that my friend's behavior - very similar to me and my mother's where I would take a lot of the blame in order to keep my mother "happy" - is unhealthy for me. I finally had the courage to call my friend (after a lot of guidance in therapy) and expressed to her over the phone that her not being mindful about her side of the street is having a negative impact on me. She proceeded to make excuses and the conversation ended abruptly since her toddler needed attention. The next day, she sent me an email thanking me for my honesty and that she is prepared to take the time to review any amends she might owe me (I didn't ask her to do this) and that we can set up a time for her to do this. If she's left anything out, I can feel free to let her know. I thanked her for this and forwarded the email to my therapist. When I met my therapist, she gave me her take on the email prefacing that her take (my therapist's take) could be completely wrong since she doesn't know my friend. My therapist basically thinks that my friend's response had a lot of sarcasm to it. Though I think my friend is trying to do the next right thing, I do believe there is a lot of unresolved anger in her regarding her past with her mother. I told my therapist this and my therapist warned me that, because this friend is such a trigger for me, my expectations should be kept very low insofar as whether or not my friend will be able to mind her side of the street in the future and that I might want to consider letting go of the relationship. My therapist asked me why I am still friends with this person. Honestly, after making a due diligent evaluation on my part, I see that her liabilities outweigh her assets at this point so I would be relieved if the friendship dies naturally. My concern, however,  is that one of two things will happen. 1) My friend will make amends and I'll feel obligated to accept and continue the friendship. 2) She will make amends and leave out some important things which I will then take the opportunity to gently bring to light and she'll get angry which will make me get angry and I'll say some things I'll regret. I think ultimately, the friendship is doomed because I can't be true to myself and the recovery I've made with regard to my relationship with my mother and keep it going at the same time. What I'm getting at is this: I think it's ending and I'm sad. But it's not over yet and I'm scared. I think the closure is coming and I'm scared of both of our hurt feelings. If anyone can relate and share their experience in coming out the other side, I would be most grateful. thank you.
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I thought my M was perfect till I was in my late teens early 20s. I even would have said my parents marriage was good, despite the fights, my M's wish to divorce F of and on again, even despite M having alienated me from my F for years to some extend. Realizing the parental alienation at 18 was one of the keys, the other one was having more and more fights with M due to me wanting to gain some level of independence, despite the supposedly perfect mother-daughter relationship (my M was a smothering uNPD). There was a lot of gas lighting in my family, codependence between my parents and enabling, so till I moved out and became independent, it was really hard to see. I had to work hard to un-enmesh myself.

Problem is, to the outside my family looked totally normal, did the normal things like vacations, good schools for the kids, and I had no comparison, even though I spent a lot of time at friends' houses. M would always criticize the parents of my friends and thereby elevate her own parenting.

I had some inkling that things were not normal with my M in my early teenage years, as I started to keep a journal with notes how I would not raise my own kids. It just wasn't enough to step Out of the FOG. I think as a child you are too dependent to truly do that if you have no support.

As for my F, due to the alienation I thought things were not right with him (the alienations contained a kernel of truth it turns out in retrospect), then when I discovered my M had manipulated me, I kind of put on rose-colored glasses with regard to F. Only in my mid 30s did I start to understand he was part of the problem and then it took years to understand the full extend of it. Only after M's death did I understand how much harm he had caused me that was not even related to his codependency with M.

I think like kiwihelen says, validating your nieces experience could go a long way, encouraging her to talk, to form her own thoughts, to express her feelings about the situation. Also having one "good enough" parent might help your niece to step outside the FOG, as she has somebody who loves her, she can rely on. Both my parents were PD and I lived in a closed system, where friends and relatives of FOO would always be on my parents side, particularly my M's, and if I voiced any issues, I was a bad daughter, which even continued after her death.
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