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Chosen Relationships / Re: Mice!
« Last post by corky on Today at 03:41:29 PM »
a hatchet??? Jeez--it's a mouse, not a shark.
Why would you have to make it on your own---wouldn't he be obligated for child support and maybe some spousal support as well? Are there any assets to be divided?
I think I would go for a second opinion from a different lawyer. I hope you can sock some money away in the meantime.
I'm so sorry you are dealing with him....the sooner you & the kids can escape, the better. What kind of dad waits until his daughter is crying to finally step up & get rid of the damn mouse.
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Parenting / Re: The Cause of NPD: Tired of being blamed
« Last post by AdultSurvivor on Today at 03:35:26 PM »
Thanks AdultSurvivor for some good suggestions.

Mare, it confounds and distresses me that my husband and I both grew up in very unhealthy environments - he far more so than I - yet developed empathy and compassion and were always respectful to others. My husband impressed me deeply when reunited with parents he had believed abandoned him in infancy. He was separated from them - without contact - for 18 years during which time he was indoctrinated to believe they were no-hopers, had abandoned him, and he was - like them - ''the scum of the earth'', born to scum and inheriting their flaws.

In his mid twenties, he was reunited with his parents and despite the pain he had suffered he never once uttered an unkind or hurtful word. He treated them as if they were loving parents who had raised him and cared for him well. He went to great lengths to protect them from hurt, saying they had suffered far more than he and must be saved from further pain, even if he continued to suffer. He was 60 before he learned that they were, in fact, blameless, but there was never a hint of accusation or recrimination. Quite the opposite. Nobody who saw them together would have guessed at their history. He was a model loving and respectful son.

My son grew up in a good, loving home with parents who worked very hard to create as much stability and normality as was possible given their own struggles, yet he has neither empathy nor compassion, is cruel, abusive, rude, and disrespectful.

How is it that the father grows up decent and good despite abuse and deprivation, and the son grows up abusive and twisted despite being loved and cared for?

My husband says it comes down to discipline. He grew up in an institution where discipline was harsh and everything was regimented. He moved from there to the army where discipline was king.

My son would say the discipline in his childhood home was harsh, but it never was. My husband was disciplined, but he was gentle with the children because he had experienced such cruelty and abuse and was determined they would not suffer that way. He was firm. We had house rules and the children knew the consequences of breaking them, but they were loved and valued. Our other children talk constantly of a happy childhood in a good home and we have great relationships with them.

What happened to our son?  He married a woman who declared that we were wrong to have rules and standards. She was filthy in the home, unbelievably lazy and selfish, and totally undisciplined in every way. She inherited great wealth and believed the world owed her a living. she acted like a princess who expected to be bowed down to and waited on. Our son developed a sense of entitlement, and the same undisciplined attitude as his wife. It wasn't quite so obvious when she was alive, but after she died he seemed to take on her persona completely. And it was shortly after her death that he turned on me. Until then, we were close. He remained close to his father until quite recently, when my husband finally decided he'd had enough of being abused and used. He had been unbelievably patient and tolerant, and just prayed for improvement, but our son went too far and he's finally given up on him - as has the rest of the family.

Not unexpectedly, perhaps, our son made a token effort to win his way back into the family circle over Easter, when he realized that we were quite content to cut him and his children off and we were having a good time without him. It was a miserable token effort, and actually did his cause harm - though he won't see that as fair. He will justify his behavior now and play victim because it didn't get the desired response. Situation normal!  Happily, though, the family are all now on the same page and he can't hurt using the ''divide and conquer method'' that was once so successful.


Um, Holy cow.  Annie I'm not a pysch, but I think this might be a huge part of the puzzle.

BTW, tangent, when I said "we" I meant my spouse and I as example.  What I meant is, is there a possibility your son suffered trauma (bullying, verbal abuse from kids and teachers at school, etc) and you and your husband might not have noticed the signs?  Kids tend to feel their parents are invincible, so thus they feel "everything" is their fault, kind of..
(And yes, Marie, I agree my sister is a hero).

Regarding how does one person turn our decent and kind and respectiful and another person develop a PD, this is a very interesting question.  I am actually in therapy myself now due to my own issues, and taking a DBT class.  I was born with severe ADHD (which has. Emotional regulation and impulse control issues).  On top of that my mother was highly and erratically I aemotionally, verbally, and physically abusive, almost definitely undiagnosed DID (see my letter in unsent letters if you are curious, I wrote just the facts.  This wasn't "spanking" but stuff that damaged my neck vertebrae permanently).  So I developed Generalized Anxiety Disorder, sev ere PTSD, have a disordered attachment style, major separation anxiety issues, and have a lack of unhealthy uncoping mechanisms and developed skills,.  I have some Borderline traits but Bordeline has been definitively ruled out.  Anyway, apologies for the tangent...  I am taking the DBT classes to learn those coping mechanisms I never learned through example and was threatened from developing.  My therapist and DBT counselors said it is kind of amazing I am not MORE messed up and don't have full Borderline or Antisocial Personality Disorder or something.  The theory is: what causes Personality Disorders is an individual's sensitivities PLUS the environment of truama or abuse.  In my case, they think I was actually pretty resilient.  I am NOT a good role model for my kids (I avoid conflict and don't know how to resolve it, thus another reason for doing DBT) and I sure have my issues but I am not as bad off with full PDs as many in my position could be.  I suspect the same is of your husband.  However, they gave an example of someone who is very sensitive due to individual differences /chemistry / genetics / imbalences whatever, who suffers what we might not get as a trauma (like being bullied at school for a period of time), and that "sensitive" person develops a PD.  That is why the abuse or trauma does not have had to have occured necessarily within the nuclear family for a PD to develop, but be SOMETHING that the individual found traumatic or abusive over a period of
time while growing up.  However, it was explained to me that BOTH a person's individual sensitivity and "trauma" is necessary to develop a PD is necessary.

Again, I am NOT a psych, but my father is one (and I do a lot of research, work on myself, and self analysis).  Does this make sense?

Anyway, this is what struck me regarding your son.  Again, this is PURELY HYPOTHETICAL so please know that.  Also will ask some questions.

Did your son love his wife?  Were they on good terms when she died?

So here is a hypothetical playing out in my mind:
Your son may have suffered some sort of trauma or bullying at school or from playmates or even from other adults growing up.  Being a kid, he didn't quite understand it wasn't OK and didn't know how to express or communicate it.  You  and your husband had suffered growing up so may not have recognized the signs of a silently suffering child.  As your son grew older, the trauma bothered him and he blamed you and your husband because you were supposed to protect him.  Being male, he had the extra stigma of allowing whatever happened to have happened to him or him to not be tough enough to stop it, so he internalized and tried to minimilze the initial trauma and continued to blame you and your spouse for the pain.  Being male and admitting helpless has its own stigma attached to it. Discussing feelings is difficult and hard to access.
At this point his PD was developing but he tried to keep it under control, as comparitively it was not "normal" to him.

His wife didn't understand the lack of entitlement and thought discipline of any kind was barbaric.  She listened to his feelings and assumed parents must be to blame- he likely either left out the actual trauma or minimalized it or blamed you for failing to protect him.  His feelings were acknowledged and this made him feel better, although the true problems were not addressed.

Then his wife died.  This is a truely traumatic event and probably threw him into a full PTSD from losing her.  Any other PD issues he had previously were probably amplified.  He is probably not able to acknowlege his own pain, his own grief.  Once again, he is blaming his parents....  The people he blamed for his childhood pain.  He misses her, is trying to live life like her.... And that pain and grief and anger is being channeled onto you.  I would not be suprised if he thinks it is not fair that both of you are still alive and you still have eachother.

Anyway, that is my purely fantasy thoughts on the matter.  Do you think any part of it might be similiar?

I urge you to stay around for your grandkids.  If your son is going through a truly unstable time, you may end up making a huge positive difference for them.  My paternal grandmother is one of two adults who are probably the only reason I am a (mostly) functional alive adult today.  Not trying to guilt you...  Just let you know my opinion from a grandkids POV...
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I am pretty well NC. It's just so lonely at this age, early 50's. Everyone seems to have a partner or kids that love them.  Wish I would have left when I was younger and had more reserve. I fear going crazy and being alone, or getting sick and being alone.

He was very attentive when I was sick. It was just when I was well and objected to his lying or cheating that there was trouble. Perhaps if I had been able to forgive his affair? Or him estranging me from my family?
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Working on Us / Re: Need prayers please - my grandfather is dying
« Last post by Toby on Today at 03:26:54 PM »
(((prettyinpink)))

Love and prayers your way....
15
The Cafe / Re: Who would you have to dinner?
« Last post by tryinghardtobefree on Today at 03:24:27 PM »
I'd love to have dinner with:

All four of the Beatles
JFK
FDR
Chief Justice Earl Warren (he wrote Brown v. Board of Education)
Jimmy Stewart
Cary Grant
Hugh Jackman (big sigh, big yum)
Mark Twain
Abraham Lincoln
Yes, and Michelle and Barak Obama
JK Rowling
Elvis
Thor (and the guy who played him in the movie)
Athena
Ella Fitzgerald
Queen Elizabeth I
Jane Austen
Charlotte Bronte
Charles Dickens

Perhaps it would be best to have two separate dinners:  One just with Hugh Jackman, one with everyone else...
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Working on Us / Re: The art of letting go...tactics for happiness
« Last post by Toby on Today at 03:19:16 PM »
(((lillylou)))

Quote
Of course, 20 years ago this advice would have gone in one ear and out the other because the bottom line in that message is "leave, grieve, and find something healthy" and I wasn't ready to do that.

 :cheers: That works too!  ;D

 This is a honest interest here on your take...question please-

As this is not our first rodeo, what needs being met through another would bring you personally peace?

For example with Kaylee she would not be able to trust that her H's communication would be offered on arrival in order to meet x,y,z of her needs to bond. Finding those needs met elsewhere may not out-weight for her the fact that he is accountable, responsible in other areas with her.

Personally...that type of choice of behavior for me, use to blow my mind and seem disrespectful...especially if I had cooked for several hours. So I stopped cooking to please or expecting love in that manner and found uses for that time that pleased me. I enjoyed my extra time so much... I will not expect myself to function in that manner as the "good wife" bit again.

When I see him infront of me...I may offer to cook. ;D It has been totally liberating. (Remember I am an older bity so it was the way I thought I was to be.) :barfy:

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Chosen Relationships / Re: Mice!
« Last post by Fedupandscared on Today at 03:17:48 PM »
Update.  He finally got rid of the trapped mouse this morning, I think because my daughter was crying about it.  Later on I found out he took it and killed it with a hatchet. WTF????  He's like well was I just supposed to let it suffer and be stuck on that pad?  Ummmm mmmm Idk but a frigging hatchet? I think he enjoyed it.
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Chosen Relationships / Re: Mice!
« Last post by Fedupandscared on Today at 03:15:26 PM »
Rat problem indeed. Frustrated77, I already know he won't change. I'm still trying to figure out what to do. I've mentioned he's looking for jobs in other states, so I'm hoping he gets one.

Update on the mice... One got caught in a trap (sticky pad)  my daughter was terrified and I'm such a girly girl I was terrified and he of COURSE he wouldn't remove it.
oh come on....if a man won't even remove a dead mouse and make the women of the house handle it that is ridiculous. At this point, he is just taking up space and oxygen. He isn't even bothering to pretend to be decent anymore.
Why do you need him to find a job in another state to give him his walking papers? And you know that if he gets a whiff of you wanting him to find another job, he will sandbag forever. I know it's really hard but if cheating and lying and refusing to help with pest control (coward) aren't your deal breakers--what would it take?
So many on here feel helpless and then they talk to a lawyer and/or dv counselor and find that they have options that they weren't aware of. It wouldn't hurt to at least talk to someone to see what could happen---things might not be as bleak as you think and you might feel a bit more empowered. You don't have to DO anything...just talk to the help that is out there. You sound pretty beaten down, honey.  :bighug:

I actually have talked to several attorneys. I've been told that I'll be restricted to my County and not the common 100 mile boundry. It would be extremely hard for me to make it on my own where I'm at. My job doesn't pay well, but I have been looking for something better and trying to decide what to do, :(
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"This is My Story" - Introduce Yourself Here! / Re: NPD Hubby?
« Last post by alive on Today at 03:09:31 PM »
Hi Deborah2438:
My spouse was the one to file for divorce.  I had to pay him to leave though...lol!  Was really relieved the day I could mutter under my breath: "don't  let the door slam your butt on the way out! "  It has been close to 2 years but there are still emotional scars...this stuff messes with your mind no matter how long you have to deal with it!
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The Cafe / Re: Ran into ex-boyfriend yesterday, looking fabulous. :D
« Last post by sandpiper on Today at 03:04:42 PM »
Good on you.
I've had that experience - my first ever serious relationship tipped me right over the edge, so that I was an hysterical mess with constant anxiety attacks & I was so uncharacteristically horrible I went straight to therapy, worried that I was turning into uBPDad. The T diagnosed me with PTSD - huge relief to know I wasn't mad - or, if I was, my family had caused it & I could at least recover - but I always felt so much shame about the failure of that relationship and just how deranged I was with that guy.
In T I came to see that he pressed a lot of my hot buttons and he probably gained some sort of satisfaction from pushing them & then standing back shrugging with the 'oh dear, look how crazy she is, aren't I a martyr to put up with this.'
I'd unconsciously chosen the same relationship dynamic that my parents had, because that was my mother's MO, too. Push the buttons on the brittle partner so that she'd look good by comparison.

Anyway, years later I ran into him in the grocery store. He'd gained 20 pounds, lost most of his hair & as I'd just left something I'd had to dress up for, by luck I was looking good.
He looked quite shocked, we were able to meet & greet amicably & since I haven't seen him since I think he's decided he'd rather shop elsewhere.
 :D
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