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Unchosen Relationships / Re: I'll admit it. I'm jealous.
« Last post by Kestrel on Today at 05:06:21 PM »
:bighug:  I get where you're coming from.

Until about five years ago, I'd stuffed enough of my emotions that I wasn't aware of my jealousy/longing for something resembling normal parents.  I was aware of anger.  Lots and lots of anger and frustration.  Although I'd learned to set some boundaries with my FOO, I was partially enmeshed still.  It was like being on a painful merry-go-round.

I long for an emotionally available mother.  enMom did some things right over the years, but she's a codependent husk of the woman I knew years ago.  Even though interacting with her often hurts, I'm not ready to go NC.  I almost wish she'd pull something really egregious to prompt me to cut her off.  Almost. :P

Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't long for a father.  The thought that comes up is, "Nope.  Not necessary.  Moving on now."  Perhaps that means that I have a lot more healing to do. 

Separating & Divorcing / Dear uNPDstbxh ...
« Last post by A_newlife2014 on Today at 05:01:31 PM »
Dear uNPDstbxh,

       Thank you so much for your recent email shooting down my request for a schedule change so that I could take our DS3 on a summer vacation -- which I did last year, and which you suggested we do every year, camping and playing with his cousins for a few days, and which now will be cut short thanks to you. It's always fun and interesting to hear your thoughts.
      Like how, although you have literally called my mental fitness into question at every chance you get and then some, with your lawyer even making snide comments right in open, public court in front of the judge about how "I must be off my meds again," during our custody fight, you nevertheless allow me to spend so much time raising our son while you are busy building your fledgling business. This includes hours upon hours of time alone with our son every week, overnights with just him and me at relatives' homes, and out-of-state vacations with just him and me lasting several days.

       It's SO interesting, because if I thought my son were being exposed to someone crazy for the majority of his time, I would work my hardest to limit my son's time with that person, not ask that person to spend even more time with him so that I could work or do other things. And I'm a woman of action, not just of words, because right now, wouldn't you know, I do believe my son is being exposed to someone mentally damaging, and I am trying my hardest to limit my son's time with that person.

        So being that you have literally called me "mental," "delusional," "paranoid," "full of rage," "unstable," "unable to function without (all) 'my meds,'" (not that I'm taking any, but D'oh! maybe that's your point?), and so "full of hate" for you that you believe your son will be marked by it forever as I fill him with my poison, it's not surprising to me that you would shoot down my proposal to not take time away from you, but to evenly swap for your time spent with him.

        While not surprising, however, the reason you cited does leave something to be desired in the logic department. For one thing, although you actively verbally encourage vacations for our son, and while they are undoubtedly "in his best interest," you are denying him the opportunity to have a nice one, as God knows, you don't have anyone to go on vacation with, or anywhere to go, or enough time off from work to do it. But that's fine. Let's move on to the fact that I asked you to swap one day for any time of your choosing, and you "chose" a day right next to the swap, defeating my purpose in trying to arrange a few days in a row with our son to be with me. Then when I told you my purpose was to get the two days next to each other, you cited that it would be too long of a time frame to go without seeing your son.

         This sounds normal and rational. However, unknown to the casual observer are the facts that (1) Although I encouraged you to pick any time of your choosing, you did not "choose" any other day than the one you suggested right next to the swap day. Then, when I told you my purpose and asked if you might be willing to compromise on another day, you didn't even try to pick anything else close to those days when you could see DS3. Instead, you blocked yourself off from a huge chunk of time, not knowing if those other days close by are available, and then accused me of trying to keep you away from your son. As it turns out, those days wouldn't have been available, but you didn't know that before blaming me. Blame first, ask no questions later. You made it seem like I was denying you almost a whole week with your son, when it wasn't me saying you couldn't see him, it was you not asking. (2) Also unknown to anyone but me are your multiple, in-writing custody proposals, in which, in your entitled, NPD mind that seldom detours into truly rational, logical thought, you gave all the time in the world to me with our son -- screwing yourself out of the only possible times "off" when you could have spent time with him -- all in an effort to gain primary custody. Your only time off, you gave to me. And every second of my time off, you suggested that DS3 be with me. The actual physical hours that you proposed he be with me, compared with you, was 2 to 1 or more. You did this, because you hoped to buy me off and that I wouldn't notice that you only wanted DS3 with you for what you thought were the few, crucial hours that would make you the "primary" parent, and therefore win custody. Under the custody proposal that you yourself proposed, in writing, several times, you gave yourself NO quality time with your son. You would have had him for no weekend time, no fun night time, just grind time before and after school. He never would have been able to spend time with you that was not just a few hours after you got out of work. He never would have been available to visit with his family with you. You also tried to lure me in by telling me that I could have our son on "all" of my vacation time, which is considerable, and all snow days, sick days, his vacations, etc. You would have "given" DS3 to me for 7 days or more at a time.

           But now you contend that you can't go more than a few days without seeing the little fella. That he needs to spend quality time with his father. It has nothing to do with simply screwing me, I'm so sure.

           Also, whenever you turn down this sked request, or any others I have made, you always cite "not knowing" what will happen in terms of custody at our next hearing, so you never want to do anything because you figure everything's going to change around the bend.

           I guess the fact that you've tried, and failed, 3 times now to reverse the primary custody decision that was made on Day 1, hasn't sunk in. And is it possible that you missed the judge actually CHUCKLING at you and your attorney, when, after being denied 3 times now, your attorney insisted that you're STILL gunning for primary custody, despite all indications --- including but not limited to the JUDGE LITERALLY LAUGHING AT YOU --- that nothing major will be happening on that front? ....

           Rest assured that yes, I am very "understanding" of your thoughts on this matter. I understand you all too well.

Your "Delusional" Ex Who's Public Enemy No. 1 Because I've Got Your Number


Unchosen Relationships / I'll admit it. I'm jealous.
« Last post by MotherMoon on Today at 04:54:52 PM »
In another thread, someone brought up how sad it is that someone cannot have a normal, loving relationship with a PD parent that other children do.  That brought back a shock of emotion to me.  Because I have no problem admitting it.

I'm so jealous of people that have good relationships with their mom that I can't see straight.

I have a friend who will drive the 4 hours to go spend a weekend with her parents.  I'm so jealous of that.

I have another friend that has frequent "dates" with her mom.  Out to events, lunch or the theatre.   I see her pics on FB and I am jealous.

I visited a friend in Hawaii, after her father's death.  She took me to a gorgeous ocean cliff where her parent's ashes are scattered.  We sat and shared stories.  And I was jealous.

I listen to people talk about how they can't wait to go see their grandkids.  They can't wait to hold them and tell them how much they are loved.  Knowing my mom's limited contact with my own kids (I have a 13 year old son she's only seen once).  Yeah... I'm jealous.

I hear about family reunions and holiday dinners with extended families.  Yup.  I'm jealous.

You get the picture.  I have never had these things.  I never WILL have them.  Even if we do reconcile to some degree, I know she will never be an actual 'mom' to me.   And when she dies, I will be sad.  But it will be because she never allowed in "in".  I may be spared that intense loss and grief that many of my friends go through, upon the death of a parent, but I have my grief and loss spread out along my entire life. 

Working on Us / Re: psychoanalytical therapy
« Last post by Oneness on Today at 04:54:03 PM »
It depends on what you are trying to achieve in therapy. Psychoanalysis is supposed to be good if you are neurotic (I believe).

I have bipolar II, GAD and PTSD. I am using therapy along the lines of DBT to help me cope and not be so reactive. I hope to do DBT in the not too distant future.

BTW, I did psychoanalysis when I was 9...it did not help my depression.
Working on Us / Re: What happens if we just stop playing the game?
« Last post by MakingChanges on Today at 04:51:52 PM »
I completely agree with you Hopeful.  Someone wrote here once that they wanted a partner, not a project.  I also have found that although boundaries have worked to protect me from others, they don't seem to alter the dysfunctional's behavior too much.    And I find it tiresome to have to work daily if not hourly to enforce my desire to be respected and treated properly. 

My exbpdbf dumped me after 2 yrs together.  But he would try to reconnect with me for many months leaving me feeling depressed, hopeful, rejected all over again, and confused.  I remember telling my Therapist that I felt like I was in a game that wouldn't end.  And she replied' "then stop playing".  I sat there with my mouth hanging open suddenly realizing that I had the power to stop this pain.  Even though he would sporadically hoover, I didn't have to respond.  But I will admit that we weren't married, didn't live together, and didn't share any property or finances.  I'm a Nurse so I wasn't financially dependent on him.  But emotionally I was very dependent.  And my kids were devastated to lose him from their lives after he had instantly enmeshed himself into our family.  I really do understand that people can be very dependent on their PD partners in regards to many factors.

I also do find that when I've dealt with troublesome people in my life, if I back off and refuse to get sucked into the chaos, they go away.  Or find someone else to latch onto.   But now I'll admit that I'm 3 yrs out from my R/S and I refuse to ever play the game again with anyone dysfucntional.  I would rather they went away.  I find the whole dance to be so tiresome.

I also feel that I would lose complete interest in anyone that I have to treat like a child.  I know I would lose sexual interest.  Especially if he acted like a toddler emotionally, or I felt that he was mentally impaired.  For the people looking to get away, I wonder if not playing the game would get your obsessed partner to go away.  They say with an NPD, to bore them to death and they'll go away.  If you don't give them Narc supply, they'll move on. 
Working on Us / Re: What happens if we just stop playing the game?
« Last post by Oneness on Today at 04:49:53 PM »
Tried it...doesn't work with a psychotic, alcoholic, BPD male who gets physically violent....or can be vindictive. He is a bad, bad, 3 year old in the big, strong body of a 50 year old man and totally insane.... :stars:

Harrieth, it sounds like your mom and mine got together to form Club Too Tacky for Words.   :P

Great to hear from you again! So glad hear you are doing so well! You are an inspiration!  :applause:
Unchosen Relationships / Re: NM's Birthday, feeling FOGgy...
« Last post by coralreef on Today at 04:26:41 PM »
No, not rambling at all. It's reassuring to know there is someone else who has these issues! Thanks for your insights. What your NM did to you over your gift is just awful. I would have been tempted to take the snowshoes back and go and get my money back!

I think gift giving and birthdays and occasions are such a minefield because N's see us as 'extensions' and so they expect us to mindread and magically figure out what they want. It's also a chance to play out the family roles by acting 'displeased' if the SG child (for example) gives them the 'wrong' gift or doesn't organise a celebration or whatever. I have to admit I hate buying gifts for others now, because I stress so much trying to find something thoughtful that they won't hate, and then I watch all their reactions as they open it trying to read between the lines. It's nightmarish.

I remember once giving my GCbrother a U2 CD for xmas and he literally pulled a face when he opened it. I stole the CD off him a couple of years later :P

I think for NM the main thing is being 'made a fuss of'. To be fair she always did it for us kids, not so much with parties or big gifts, but making sure that we felt special on our bdays. As an adult I don't expect too much hoopla on my own bday, but I think she has expectations around her birthday and unfortunately doesn't communicate them...because she's an N and we should knoooow.

Last year she gave me the silent treatment because when she asked me if myself and my ex were free to have dinner for her bday that weekend, I said 'I'm not sure, I'll let you know asap, I just think ex might have signed us up for something else on that day'. Later when I confirmed that we could come after all, the silent treatment stopped and she said something along the lines of 'I was upset because I thought that if you couldn't come, I couldn't have my dinner.' Therefore justifying her giving me the silent treatment?

Anyway, from now on I'm going to take the approach that a gift is a gift, and if she doesn't like it or appreciate it, then that's her problem for being ungrateful; and, if she wants a party, fuss, or celebration, she needs to ask for it because I'm not a mindreader and I can't anticipate her ever changing needs. It'll be hard to cut through the FOG, but if I remember those points, then I should be ok.
Thanks everyone for your replies. I think what I'm dealing with is a nasty soup of all these different things, but the primary one is this:

this nagging "bad" feeling just sticks with me some days!

It sounds like you're waiting for the metaphorical other shoe to drop.  I experience this.  IMO it's habit:  you're used to waiting for the next crisis since with PDs the good times don't last.  It does get better.  As I continue to practice the skills I've learned in T, that vague sense of foreboding shows up less and less frequently.


Vague sense of foreboding. That was phrased so precisely.  And you're right about the other shoe. I just can't imagine a world in which I go NC and NM doesn't bemoan the loss of her SG and send in the FM to get things back in order. Nbro already did his FM job, but being an ignoring N, couldn't be bothered to take me seriously or entertain the possibility of something being terribly wrong.  It was really hard for me to take HIM seriously because his letter to me was dripping with narcissism and entitlement, amidst more anger than any sensible adult should allow into a difficult conversation.  So, hoovering has happened in subtle and obvious ways already, but nothing that's upset my life in any way, more just been a nuisance in the middle of my healing process.

Regarding that... katydid, you're RIGHT. The whole thing was very anticlimactic. I gave no explanation for my NC to those who were most going to be impacted because I knew my audience. The words would have been useless. An explosive conflict would have been easier in that there'd be a sense of finality, but it wasn't like that. NM pushed my boundaries too far, felt entitled to my home and my emotions and my relationships, and I'd had enough.  I told her so, told her any response would be ignored, and that was that. I just never even replied to Nbro. Thus hangs the other shoe... that can't be IT?

HOMH, the emotional work for me is rewriting engrained beliefs and patterns than in forgiving my FOO or removing anger. I've had a difficult time feeling anger through this whole thing, perhaps because of my worldview or perspective on people in general. More or less, I recognize the wrong treatment, I feel the hurt from it, but it does me no good to work myself up to anger when I honestly just feel bad for anyone who chooses to live life so wholly self-absorbed.  I hope the best for my FOO. I hope that many or all of them find their way to healing and get new eyes to see their lives and relationships and destructive patterns. I want better for all of them, and I know the safest place for me is far away until they can arrive there of their own accord.

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