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Hello FOB.  Your with friends here at OTF.  Hopefully with finding this site, you will find some answers. 

I am glad you are looking for a therapist.  When we are dealing with a PD (whether officially dxd or not), our lives get sidetracked into caretaking these individuals and can end up losing touch with our own lives.  My H is an expert at painting his life as being the victim in all things and I am his chief victimizer.  He once told me he believes I relish being able to torture him.  What I discovered is that with his PD, he honestly believes this.  There thinking is distorted in ways we find hard to fathom.  A non (non PD person) just doesn't think the same way. 

My H is dxd with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) with other cluster B traits so he also has some BPD traits as well.  There is a book I read and you can find a thread about on this site called "Stop Caretaking the BPD/NPD..."  It helped me to understand the PD person in my life and how to back away from caretaking at the expense of my own life.  There are other books that are helpful, too, that can be found at http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?board=26.0.  Educating yourself about BPD and perhaps NPD (BPD are usually very narcissistic, too) will be helpful to you. 

Good luck to you. 
Unchosen Relationships / Re: I dropped the bomb
« Last post by PrettyPictures on Today at 06:11:44 PM »
So she read my reply about an hour ago and never answered.  Her behavior might not seem like that big of an issue, but it's what her behavior does to me psychologically.
I felt too much like I was a puppet on a string.  Or I was in a play written by her and I had to perform my role or else the production would come to a standstill until I got back into character.
Chosen Relationships / At a loss
« Last post by Boohbah on Today at 05:54:49 PM »
I have been reading on here for months, I am feeling brave tonight. I am really in need of advice And support. Firstly on this forum do you get email alerts when someone posts on your message? I am so aware that my emails are read, I delete my history every time I use the computer but wondered if this site does email alerts with links back here?
I have been thinking for ages how to put my concerns into writing, I partly do not want to see it in black and white as I will have to face it as my reality, secondly, I worry that my partner will see it and then all hell would break loose. I am also not sure how to keep this succinct as I feel I could write a book. I will try to keep to areas of concern/issues and keep it as brief as I can.
I have been with my partner for nearly three years, she was my boss and I left my husband of 12 years to be with her, I believed her to be my soulmate and so very different to my controlling, autistic husband, but I now feel I went from the frying pan into the fire. I have two children and they live with me but they have regular weekends with my ex.
My partner is very intense, initially I thought this was to do with a same sex relationship and I was so flattered and overwhelmed with all the attention and love she gave me, however, it is clear that there is so so much more going on and I absolutely believe she has a personality disorder.
Jealously- Always evident from day one, jealous of anyone who has been in my life, slowly the vast majority of my friends have been isolated from me, she says I am all she needs and her behaviour is very sulky, sarcastic and passive  aggressive if I want to see them or talk about them. It has become easier and less stressful to just not contact them or see them when I know she is at work, although she will relentlessly text me when I am with them. She is very jealous of anyone I have had a relationship with, want to know all the details, but really only wants to hear the bad part of the relationships and if or when she finds a photograph of me happy with an ex, well, that is treated with absolute fury and she will sulk and do silent treatment, or make me feel guilty for being in a previous relationship. The jealousy part is so huge, she resents me doing anything but giving her attention, I have to be physically in contact with her as much as possible, even if I am crocheting she will get sulky or pass comments that she is being denied attention, same if I am on my laptop or texting.
No privacy~she reads everything, texts, emails, post,  goes through my computer history, reads what I have put on forums. I am a very open person, I do Not have any secrets, I felt that if she had free access to everything it might reassure her that I am not up to anything and have no secrets from her. She access it daily, doesn't say she is but I know from some comments that she as read things, a few times she has Said I have sleep talked and revealed things from my texts and then created a row from this.
She has so many unwritten rules that I am on egg shells constantly, even if I have worked out a trigger and safe subjects to talk about, these can change and she will be hostile and give me silent treatment.
She texts her undying love to me non stop, she needs it back or she gets sulky if I dont reply quick enough, she needs my complete attention, even sitting on the sofa, she wants me to stroke her hair or stroke something lovingly, this is constant, hours on hours! If I am doing anything, she will give sarcastic jibes about not giving her any attention, even in bed if I turn over! She will ask why I have moved away, being asleep is not a reason apparently!
I know I am rambling, she is currently asleep on the sofa after two bottles of wine, so I know I can have some time to type,! And yes, she is an alcoholic, highly functioning one and one in complete denial, but I am a daughter of alcoholic parents, I know all the signs. After one bottle of wine, she can get verbally defensive and argumentative, many circular arguments she will provoke, I have learnt that whatever answer I give, it is wrong. She is very good at arguing, I hate it, she ties me in knots and even when I am completely innocent, I have to apologise and try and take to blame to calm the situation, thankfully she will often fall asleep, then Wake with no memory or if she slowly realises she has been completely out of order, she will apologise but very much manage to put some of the guilt back onto me!
She hides everything herself, her phone has only my messages on, I wouldn't access her emails but it is all secretive, she holds the iPad so I can't see what she is doing, she has her history deleted instantly, her post is hidden away and she talks in private away from me and I respect that privacy.
She is in a very high functioning job, highly regarded and well thought of, she has an infectious personality, everyone want to be her friend. She has a few work colleagues but not friends, none. She is in contact with her mother and sister but from a distance.
She had quite a traumatic past, she was abused by a school teacher who became a family friend and this person 'controlled' her for over 25 years, it was her relationship with me that stopped this dysfunctional relationships, I got the police involved and this person is now completely out of my partners life. My partner, will not access any support or counselling to work through the trauma she has been through,she says that I am all she needs, she will not discuss it and says it is boxed away. Because of this I have felt some of her behaviours are related to the abuse she suffered, I have tried to support, work through and separate, and possibly ignore the impact her behaviour is having on me.
She has stollen money from me, I have lent her a large sum of money, she keeps saying she will pay it back but she hasn't, she gets defensive and sulky and makes me feel guilty for mentioning it, and to be honest I have hardly ever asked only when my solicitor raised it for the financial side of the divorce. That aside,  she used my Amazon account as her own, she said because our iPads were in sync, she didn't realise that I was paying for it all, but around this time my statements stopped and went online ( now know she set this up, but I was unaware) I could see the end balance on my bank statement, just not the individual details. Anyway to cut a very long story short, she admitted to 500 pounds of stuff and paid it back, then when I did access my statement and managed to reopen my Amazon account ( she deleted it, saying she did to stop this happening again, but it cleared my history...) I could see it was nearer to 2.5 thousand, she paid this back. But on closer examination of my statements I could see she Has been using my credit card to pay for food shopping, petrol and to take out cash, again around 2.5 thousand, she doesn't know I know this yet, I am so shocked, she knows I am going through a very expensive, traumatic divorce and that I only work part time and have two children to support! Her salary is three times mine and her outgoings much less, I have no idea what her. Money is going on.
I am at a complete loss, I love her, I am scared of her and scared for her, I feel my head is not my own, there is so much more, this is only the highlights. She claims I am the only love of her life, yet her treatment of me says nothing of the sort! I want to run away but can't, she has me, I want to help her, I keep thinking I have got things wrong, but the evidence is there. No one would believe me, she is seen as such a inspirational person, she has such a loving side, my children adore her, she is like their best friend, always treating them ( with my money it now appears!) and she loves having the family life, as long as she gets her time with me and I give 100% of my attention to her.
I want to disappear.
I don't even know who I am anymore, I don't recognise myself, I am trying so hard to be and do what she wants, but she keeps wanting more, I don't know how I let this happen, how did this happen.
Please help xx
Unchosen Relationships / Re: Economic Abuse??
« Last post by fourleafclover on Today at 05:44:08 PM »
You shouldn't have a problem with taking your money out of the bank account and transferring the money to a new account that he has no access to ... something I'd definitely recommend doing.

As for the car situation, you could ask a car dealer what the process is for selling a car when 2 people are on the title and if both cannot be present. The process will depend on where you live, and possibly the wording on the title. 

If his consent is required to sell the car and he won't agree to it, then I'm not sure what you can do at that point other than just continue to drive the car while trying to save money to purchase a new one on your own in the future. Maybe someone else will know some other option though? But as long as you have the car in your possession, you do have control over your mobility in terms of at least being able to drive the car whenever and wherever you want. 

Okay, I'll get right on the transferring it! Thank you :)) And I really feel stuck in a bind here. I'm afraid to initiate any form of contact, even through a third party like this to sell the car, because I'm afraid he'll take it as an indication to start harassing me again. I'm going to see eventually whether or not he agrees I guess. I'll update when I do!

As someone who used to work in a bank, you can absolutely open a new account under your name only & move the money that's in your joint account into the new account.  If I remember correctly, you can then close the old account once the money's been moved to the new one.  As long as your name is on the account, the bank does not care.  (If you didn't have your name on the account, that'd be a different story.)

I googled briefly on the car issue, which said that (in California--I don't know where you are) if the title read "Person 1/Person 2" or "Person 1 and Person 2", the sale must be signed off by both parties.  If it says "Person 1 or Person 2" then only 1 person must sign off on the sale.  In any case, I'd contact your DMV (or your version of it if you're not in the US) to find out what the laws are in your state/country.

Okay, phew yeah I was worried about closing them mostly because I know I can withdraw and move the money. I heard once that the IRS tracks more than $10,000 when it's transferred I think?? Should I like transfer $9,000 electronically and then physically withdraw and move the rest??

I'm pretty sure it's the same law here, and unfortunately it is an, 'and' title. I'm just going to have to hope to high heavens that it goes smoothly and that 1. the buying party cooperates in contacting him for me, and 2. he agrees to sign and fax over the documents without any funny business.  :-\

Thank you sdsmith and DaisyGirl77 for your advice! :))

Doing that is illegal.  Your best bet would be to have a cashier's/bank check made out to yourself for the entirety of your bank balance so you can then deposit that check into whatever bank you've got your own account at.  Some banks track where it's going & why you're withdrawing/closing your accounts with the bank.  You don't have to tell them; if they press for an answer, tell them that you're moving (even if it's not true).  They only ask this for 2 reasons:  To ensure that you're not laundering money, & internal tracking (business purposes to pull in more banking customers, etc.).

Additionally, you can ask your new bank to put an alert or a message on your account(s):  You can ask them to put something like "Always ask for ID when (your name) comes to do business at the bank." or "All business must be conducted in person.  Do not answer any questions regarding (your name)'s accounts on the phone.".  Anything at all.  You can say that you've got reason to believe that you have a stalker...  Anything you wish.  Banks deal with a LOT of this, so they take all this in stride.

Really?? I honestly should have known, it's exactly what uNPDf had done when I had to pay him for the car. I guess he was taking extra precautions against the transfer of money from me to him being tracked. God, he really is a scumbag. :stars:

And thanks, I'll go the cashier's check route. And I definitely will!! I'm going to put alerts for activity and also probably notify them as to the threat of uNPDf and what his name is, what he looks like, etc. I don't know about all the business being in person, but since we now live in different states, I don't think it would be a problem. Thank you for preemptively stopping me from inadvertently breaking the law!
Ugh, Scarlett. Yes. I can relate. I'm in the middle of a custody eval right now, and am dealing with a lot of those similar issues. Where is the line between bashing and telling my truth? I don't want to bash, but it just so happens that I have an awful lot of negative stories and abuse to discuss.

I was honest in my long questionaire. And when I got into the eval, the evaluator seemed to understand the abuse issues. She kept nodding her head. She's a psychologist, so it's different than talking to a court official who might not be trained in these issues.

You never ever want to try and diagnose the PD person...that's for the evaluator to do. But I told her that I had been doing a lot of reading since leaving stbx(uNPDh) and related to certain books (I shared titles with her) and that I related to the symptoms of narcissistic abuse. I made it all about my experience, as opposed to pointing fingers. I hope that makes sense.

When the evaluator asked me, "Why did you decide to get a divorce?", I asked her if she wanted me to start with the incident that caused me to leave. But she said that she wanted me to talk about the relationship in general, and all of the issues and friction and abuse that led up to the decision to divorce.

I've been told that you want to appear human. In the N's world, everything is always perfect. There's nothing wrong with the kids, no one ever cries or has trouble going to bed or gets in fights or anything (magically!). I have been advised to own the issues that I am facing with the kids. Own the issues that I have with parenting (I have a hard time disciplining, or I sometimes yell, or whatever it is). The evaluators understand that no one is a perfect parent, and they are interested in parents who are willing to ask for help or further education in order to be a BETTER parent. They are trained to see red flags in parents who do not admit to weakness.

I have also been told that you want to say something along the lines of, "I want my kids to have a healthy and full relationship with their dad. But, I want to make sure that it is done safely."

List your concerns. Be able to back them up with evidence, documentation, texts, call records, witness statements, etc.

If you're confused or unsure about how to express your concerns, say, "You know, I have a hard time expressing the complexity of the relationship issues, because there were so many and they were so subtle and covert." Or whatever your truth might be. You can also say something like, "My intention is not to speak negatively about N, but to share my experiences and concerns."

Again, are you going through a full custody evaluation? I'm compiling all of that stuff right now, so I know what a headache it is.

I don't know if this was helpful at all.

Good luck!

I am still married to my NPD for 18 years and I applaud your inspiring strength!!!  :)
I can't imagine what you are going through, but I know you can do this! AND you can keep doing it, and do you know why?
Because you are an AWESOME and AMAZING WOMAN who has been through worse than this! You know you can do it. I know it is exhausting but you also know you can't give up. Keep reaching out, keep finding new information, keep vigilant, keep knowing that, YES, you are doing the right thing!

Keep coming to this site, read and use the tools, watch others who have survived narcissists and other PD spouses on you tube (they are everywhere) and see their joy and strength when they fight back to save themselves.
You have done so much to save your kids, because you know they are worth it. Now it is time to not give up and save yourself, because YOU ARE WORTH IT. Truly, you are worth it.
Hello Acacia

wow. what an interesting thread. I don't quite know how to cut and paste actual statements made so I am gonna shot from the hip here.  Acacia, it probably would help at least me understand more fully why your sister has absolutely no sense of who she is. This does not occur in. isolation.  This, to me, was heart braking to read,  as you spend time reading on the forum, there are many,many people. here who have. had their entire identity stripped from them due to incredibly destructive family dynamics, which start very young.  You appear to have a very sound and healthy sense of identity, probably fostered by having an encouraging relationship with your parents. do you not find it creepy that someone who grew up with you has no sense of identity?  Acacia, did you know that it is possible to grow up right next to someone. and to not even notice that a sibling was treated very very different from you?  I know that is possible,   because I. grew up in. very close quarters with a sister which is 18 months older than I. am. No one was hit. we weren't yelled at, It. was the tone of my moms voice, it was the way she didn't look. at me, but would turn.  6 inches to the right, and look at my sister with  love and a complete different expression. You. see, I was the scapegoat. there was a lot of ganging up, making fun of me when I was little, which was not curtailed. the jokes, the scheming, the tacit agreement. that we would. all do this, except...not me. The fact , and this may. be hard for you to hear, but. the fact that your mother would state recently that your sister had no personality when she was a very young kid.....is, well, casually cruel.  In a post you commented that perhaps your sister isn't all there.  well then shame on you. and shame on all of you. who joke and laugh.  But my guess. is, its. a family dynamic thing, which is why you are here in the first place. except,  I am sorry to break. this bad news, this in  not an indictment against your sister. you stumbled into the right place, but for a reason that you didn't expect.  I think your sister is what is called an Identified Patient.  This is the person in a family who will manifest the symptoms of very toxic dynamic occurring for a long period of time in a family. and yes, because a child is not. nurtured, not affirmed, a true personality disorder will develop. but  she is manifesting the symptoms of a much deeper. problem.  I do not feel that I need to ask the question of whether your sister was ganged up on or scapegoated when she was little. its happening now, you described it with the family meetings to make sure we all..do. thus and such...this is old fashioned bullying.  however, the more disturbing  issue that arose in this thread was the number of people who saw NOTHING wrong with your description of your sister, your own mother,s heinous comment, and comments by other family members. Everyone who responded,  save one four leaf clover, engaged in what personally is my worst nightmare. don't talk to her, keep away, ssshhhh....  in closing, my sister absolutely swears up and down that we were treated the same. see, we grew up in the same house, but she didn't hear it, because my mom would wait until it was just me and her, then I would get the mean comments that no one believes transpired.  Acacia, I am a shell of a person. When I was little I would stand in front of the mirror , just to see if I really existed. I have a hard time holding a job due to poor social skills, unable to bond with anyone. I believe I have a personality disorder, how could I not? I was treated like I was  invisible.  the personality disorder only proves that something went bad wrong during the first few years of life. yes, she needs help. my. heart goes out to her.

I'm not going to lie, I had some difficulty reading this, ononotiiwillsurvive. But once I got through it I realized that this is a very heartfelt and truthful message about what it is to be the scapegoat of the family.

I also grew up as the scapegoat of the family, but I had the buffer of having a very supportive and loving NonMom, who divorced uNPDf. It wasn't until she passed that my sister and I had to go live with him and EnStepMom full time. That was when the heavy abuse began, and GC StepSis now has NPD of her own as a result, and my younger sister (also a scapegoat) has heavy, heavy fleas.

Not all personality disorders are the same, and not all of them are toxic. Typically, in my experience and based on the symptoms present, Cluster B disorders (NPD, ASPD, some forms of BPD) are the ones that are malignant and harmful to others, specifically because of their lack of empathy.

Clusters A and C (with the exceptions of PPD and OCPD) tend to be more harmful to themselves and fearful of others, also more likely to be taken advantage of and/or abused.

I'm pretty sure I don't have a PD, but since Dissociative Identity Disorder is listed as a one (I think?), although it is first and foremost a Dissociative Disorder, I am very close to having one - I have Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (DDNOS). I also have OCD, and I suspect some form of other anxiety disorder in addition to the CPTSD. It's actually been suggested that CPTSD and one type of BPD are virtually the same thing, although I'd argue against this.

Based on your writing style (if English is your first language, I don't know) have you thought that it could be Schizotypal?

'the jokes, the scheming, the tacit agreement. that we would. all do this, except...not me.'

I experienced this, too! Information hoarding and exclusion from common knowledge as an abuse tactic. The amount of havoc it can wreak on a child's psyche is incredible. It was always followed up with gas lighting in the form of, 'What? You don't remember? We told everyone at the dinner table, why weren't you paying attention?' When I had no knowledge of or memory of being told a certain date/time/other source of information about what the entire family had planned.

'and this may. be hard for you to hear, but. the fact that your mother would state recently that your sister had no personality when she was a very young kid.....is, well, casually cruel.'

Yes, I agree. It is, in my opinion, actually extremely cruel. A healthy person would not joke about this with their child.

'however, the more disturbing  issue that arose in this thread was the number of people who saw NOTHING wrong with your description of your sister, your own mother,s heinous comment, and comments by other family members. Everyone who responded,  save one four leaf clover, engaged in what personally is my worst nightmare.'

I was also shocked to see so many people responding in this manner. I didn't want to mention it before because I was fearful about the way you might take it, acacia, but from the wording and speech you use in your messages, it sounds as if you have, in the best case, a lot of fleas, and in the worst, a PD of your own. It's very indicative of having thoughts of grandiosity.

Perpetuating harm against a scapegoated sibling (with support by almost every other commenter!) makes me very suspicious and upset when it comes to the safety and healthy of the OOTF community at large. It is possible that with so many relations to PDs, and so many people still not entirely OOTF or absent of their own fleas/PDs, this place is capable of becoming a breeding ground for the very things we fear most.

With the amount of suffering that each and every person on this forum has experienced at the hands of a PDed person, how can virtually every comment on this thread overlook the overt and glaring signs of a disordered environment??

Unchosen Relationships / I dropped the bomb
« Last post by PrettyPictures on Today at 05:31:52 PM »
I told my mother that I can't deal with the bizarre behavior going on with her and my GC brother and then I said they need to back off and leave me alone.

She replied that she's sorry I feel that way and that she's not playing any games.

And went ahead and replied asking that if she's not playing games then why did she get weird with my husband on Facebook and hide posts from him?
And why did my GC brother unfriend us just because we had to cancel plans after we spent 3 months going out of our way for them before that?
So again I asked to be left alone.   There will be no more replying from me.

I think I only replied because the first time I went NC a few years ago,  leading up to it I didn't stand up for myself and call her out on behavior. 
I was too fogged and enmeshed to do it then.  But not this time.  So I wanted to assert myself even though I realize that it will change nothing about her behavior.

I'm sure that I just set another smear campaign in motion,  but I just couldn't take it anymore.

 :stars: :stars: :stars:
Thank you all for your replies... it truly helps. Reading through tears I slowly heal.
It is so wonderful to have others here who know what I am talking about! I just don't have to explain... you know what I mean. So many of us! It is so healing to know I am not crazy! It's hard, because in person, most believe my husband... he just charms the pants off everyone he meets (in the beginning anyway.) I am the one who looks beaten down and guarded, not trusting anyone, like an old abused dog. I see their looks... probably thinking why someone so great would be with someone like me. Not ANYMORE!

I went a whole week using the medium chill... but not only that! I starting going to the gym, eating healthier, walking the dog daily, meeting up with friends a couple times (which I rarely do since being with him) and the house is very clean... All because I realize I am worth taking care of for a change. I had all this energy NOT spending it all on him  :blush:

I need to just write and read this site daily, to keep things on the right track. To keep my strength. Thank you THANK YOU to everyone who makes this site possible!
Last week I think it was, there was a woman, a brand new member, describing typing her post in fear of her husbands return, and that he had been physically violent. Cant recall the post name or anything. Can someone locate it? Any updates? It was troubling.
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