Out of the FOG

Excellent book on what boundaries are, how they are a basic human right, how to develop them. Being raised by PD boundaries was a brand new concept for me.

This workbook (link below) looks like an excellent resource and I plan to use it for a second go through the book. It's meant to use with the DVD video and book together but I'm going to give it a try with just the book.
http://www.cloudtownsend.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Boundaries-New-Revised-DVD-Facilitator-Guide_-Revised0812.pdf

•:• word of warning, the book is written with a definite Christian slant so might be off putting to non Christian people. Personally I appreciated a balanced use of scripture to explain healthy boundaries and feel there's enough other information for the non Christian to benefit as well.

Sometimes we need to set boundaries that hurt others but it doesn't harm them. In fact, in the long run, they are better off whether they know it or not and we are better off even though we may not feel that when first learning to set boundaries. Actually, at first, we may ourselves feel pain from trying to set boundaries, but they are a basic human right.

There's a big difference between hurting someone and harming someone. Hurt can sometimes cause growth for both parties but harm most definitely injures. What feels good can harm (sugar rots teeth) and what hurts can heal (dentist fills cavity) and keeping this in mind is helping me reconcile things in my mind.

The book uses this illustration: Going to the dentist to have a cavity filled hurts but it is not harmful, in fact you are better off without the cavity. Eating sugar feels really good but has the potential to harm you by causing cavities.

Getting the cavity filled - Does it hurt? Yes it hurts but does it harm? No in fact it makes it better. And candy, does it hurt? No in fact it's a tasty treat. But doesn't harm? Yes, in fact that may be why one has a cavity in the first place.

This helped me level set so many of my conflicting feelings about fear obligation and guilt.

On obligation and guilt:
http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=26926.msg250920#msg250920

Some other links to boundary topics and excerpts:

boundaries are like fences and rooms around your house (http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=24358.msg227539#msg227539)

others may have boundaries but don't like our boundaries (http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=24260.msg226634#msg226634)

boundaries and preferences reveal relationship status (http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=25996.msg241611#msg241611)

Excerpt from book:

QuoteTwo parents with an adult son log to the therapist and complain about how he wouldn't come to therapy because he said he doesn't have any problems. Here's what transpired next:

"After they had talked for a while, I responded: “I think your son is right. He doesn’t have a problem.” You could have mistaken their expression for a snapshot; they stared at me in disbelief for a full minute. Finally the father said, “Did I hear you right? You don’t think he has a problem?” “That’s correct,” I said. “He doesn’t have a problem. You do. He can do pretty much whatever he wants, no problem. You pay, you fret, you worry, you plan, you exert energy to keep him going. He doesn’t have a problem because you have taken it from him. Those things should be his problem, but as it now stands, they are yours. Would you like for me to help you help him to have some problems?” p. 29-30 of "Boundaries" by H. Cloud & J. Townsend

And the chapter goes on to explain about boundaries. Boundaries, having  a life, and being a separate person from others around you PD or not, is a basic human right. Live your life, not others lives for them.

I love this book!  I think its what sparked my journey Out of the FOG.  Can't second your recommendation enough.  Glad I have it in print because its all marked and tabbed up!  Rarely leaves my nightstand (and if it does its only because it has traveled to the office with me).

I read this book years ago and appreciated it. I don't have it anymore...but I was thinking of it often recently because I feel I'm not sticking to my boundaries for myself as well as I could be lately.

Thanks for sharing all of your info...I'm looking forward to giving it a second read soon :)

Thank you for this!  It's a very useful resource!

This book gave me the courage to finally start setting boundaries in the relationship that was causing me a lot of pain. It was very eye opening. As a Christian, I feel like a lot of my unhealthy behavior in this relationship was caused by a misinterpretation of the bible, so this book was so helpful.

While this book has some good information regarding setting boundaries in specific scenarios, I found it hard to translate it to my situation with an NPD spouse.  I have to admit I didn't go through the work book because I didn't see how to apply the book to my life. Am I missing something that helps set boundaries with NPDs?

It would be difficult to say without knowing specific challenges. Can you share some of the challenges in the Chosen forum? Sometimes people confuse rules for others behavior with boundaries. Boundaries are all about what action we take to protect ourselves from abuse.

I  know this is an old topic, but I am here looking over book reviews today.  This particular book was the turning point in the beginning of my own recovery and healing. I do not consider myself a "Christian" (though I do believe in a Sovereign God), and I don't find the scriptural references and "God talk" off-putting at all. In fact, if anything, that Almighty God seems to think boundaries are good and necessary is pretty reassuring confirmation that we should find and set our own.  :D

The book helped me ground my boundaries and not because of faith, simply because of the way the book is written with feeling and rationality and real world experience and application. As a matter of fact it doesn't matter which faith you belong to I think (I'm not Christian) or if to any, originally the Christian angle put me off, but I'm so happy I gave the book a second chance.

Just stumbled across this thread. "Boundaries" is a great book. Boundaries are a great tool for handling people with a PD. And this book in particular is far and away the best book I've ever read on the subject.

It's much more informative than the average book on boundaries. For example, the average book on boundaries deals mainly with "doormats" (people-pleasers) who find themselves unable to say "no" and end up getting walked on by other people. But this book by Cloud and Townsend goes a lot deeper into the subject than most. They break the "doormats" down into different types or categories depending on what kinds of sacrifices they make for others. Enablers, codependents, martyrs, etc.

As other posts have mentioned, the book is written from a Christian perspective: Lots of quotes from the Bible and all that. I ignored all that stuff, since I'm not a believer. Meantime, the psychology portion of the book is excellent, indeed flawless; rare to see in a book with a Christian perspective.

If readers are curious about the kind of advice given in the book (and how it pertains to handling PDs), I provided some notes from the book on the subject of boundaries in marriage in another thread. See this post of mine: http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=67023.msg591141#msg591141

This book was so hard for me to get into. I am not a Christian and all the religious metaphors just completely turned me off.

I can't get over the constant references to the bible and the church.

I found it alienating. If the overt religious messaging was conveyed in the Amazon description, I wouldn't have bothered purchasing this book.

derailed, sorry to hear it didn't work for you. Did you notice all the above references to this book being from a Christian perspective?  If I had an equal or better non-Christian book to recommend to you, I would, but I don't.  Perhaps some of the links on Out of the FOG here would be helpful, or even the glossary, for a secular version of concept of boundaries.

So often bible quotes are used to bully people into submissiveness and to justify the violation of boundaries. For religious people this book offers them another perspective - a line of defense within their system. For readers with other religious beliefs  it is quite easy to skip over the bible paragraphs and benefit from the discussion of healthy boundaries and how to maintain them. 

Please keep in mind this particular thread is specifically about the book for those who have read it and their experience or thoughts about the book itself.

As for discussing general topics of religion or boundaries please do so on the boards appropriate to your topic. Discussing the merits or challenges of maintaining or establishing boundaries with PD persons or how religion has been a challenge or was used against you is not for this thread and will be moved to a more appropriate location.

Sorry if my post was controversial, and thank you to everyone who replied with suggestions.  I'll try and give it another chance.

Quote from: derailedinCO on February 05, 2019, 11:39:25 AMSorry if my post was controversial, and thank you to everyone who replied with suggestions.  I'll try and give it another chance.

no worries and if it doesn't resonate with you you're most certainly entitled to pass on the book. There's no reason to read something that you find personally triggering or irritating when you're intending to help and heal. The thread had gotten off track a little bit but those comments were moved to the appropriate forum and we left the reminder just so future comments here can focus on the book review itself. Again you're certainly most entitled to your review and it's just too bad that you missed the references in the Amazon review as well as here in the Book Review board. Hopefully you find something that works better for you and I'd suggest checking out some of the other books in the Book Review board here.

Started off well but then too much christian/bible slant to it. Its all the time - which makes it a bit irrelevant for some of us. Not for me I'm afraid.

Quote from: p123 on September 24, 2019, 05:41:45 AM
Started off well but then too much christian/bible slant to it. Its all the time - which makes it a bit irrelevant for some of us. Not for me I'm afraid.

yes that is the intent and perspective, written by Christians for Christians specifically.