Meursault 2.0

[sanmagic7]

dear meursault, i'm so very sorry you're suffering so much.  i truly am.  i hope something positive comes down this road you're traveling, and quickly.  in the meantime, i'm here for you, hangin' right beside you.  take care of you.  no matter what you might think, you're worth it.

[meursault]

I'm so mad, why won't women in my life AT THE VERY LEAST tell me what is so bad about me they don't want me.  I stopped that sexual assault a couple of weeks ago.  I will never step up with that sort of thing again.  "Eff you, sister" and walk on by will be me response.  If im not even worth telling what I'm doing wrong. , then to * with it.  I will spend my time getting drunk and paying for prostitutes.  I wasn't the one that lost faith first.

Update:  I walked away fromthat and thought: "How many times have I done this?  12?  Way too low.  30?  way too high.  maybe 17 to 20 times.  Eff that.  I now am never coming back here. because women hate me so much and I will cheer them getting what they deserve.  I don't understand what makes me such a mionster that guys who sheat one their wives/girlfrinds. hit them, yell at them, laugh at them, are better than me.  I'm not even a weirdo.  I'm, reallly not.  Eff this.  I hope everyone suffers badly.  You all certainly made me.  And for no reason  And nobody would even tell me, so i could change.  Its a sick world and I hate it.  I am absolutely shattering.  And I hate it all. 

Sorry if anyone gets wound up about this.  I didn't mean it that way.  But I am absolutely done with being a lauhable piece of unlovable garbage.. being told I'm worth something, by women who are willing to have a life with, and kids with, guys who treat them like garbage.  I have held the faith that women in my life aren't just a bunch of masochists for 45 years.  That's over.  I hate everyone.


I wont be back.

Meursault.

[Three Roses]

I will be sad if you go.

[Kizzie]

nobody would even tell me, so i could change

I will tell you the truth Meursault. It is unfair and unrealistic to lump all women together as masochists and suggest that you now hate an entire gender. I urge you to re-read this thread when you are not drinking as I'm certain you can't help but see that both Sansmagic and Three Roses tried very hard to connect with and help you.  In your last post you ignored that and are choosing to paint all women with one brush. I have edited your post to reflect the fact that the women you are talking about are those in your life who for one reason or another have disappointed you because heaping women together as worthy of your hate is not something I personally can let stand. 

I too hope you don't leave but if you do, please try and keep in mind that you did hear some truth here and you did receive some support and care from women in this forum. Also, not a good idea to post if you have been drinking, best to write out your rage and rejection in a private letter so that you acknowledge and vent what you are feeling, but don't alienate those who are trying to be supportive and caring toward you.

[sanmagic7]

meursault, i don't know what else to say but that i'm sorry you hate us all.  we don't hate you, never have, never will.  if you decide not to come back, i wish you only the best.  care and concern flying your way.

[Three Roses]

I really like you, M. And I know you're panicking, all those months and years of not knowing what your legal status would be; I cannot imagine the sense of panic and rage and confusion you lived under for 6 years! 6 YEARS! I wouldn't have lasted 6 weeks. And now that's over, and you are beginning to decompress.

I used to have outbursts of utter rage. I thought of myself as having a bad temper, ready to lash out and in defense mode at the drop of the hat. Looking back it's plain to see that those were panic attacks. Stuck in a constant EF, my alarm bells were going off right and left. I wonder if that's what is happening with you right now.

I accept you, M, with all your flaws and beautiful parts mixed in together, just like the rest of us.

You know about hiking and wildlife. Think of the wildlife that you may encounter on a hike. When you come face to face with an animal, you must have that quiet confident core, dead center in the middle of your being, or you are inviting disaster; that peaceful confidence of knowing you're not there to hurt anyone and no one is going to attack you. It's the furthest thing from your mind, you're just there to spend time in nature and soak up the luscious goodness that whirls in the air around you when you're out there.

This is what I've been trying to communicate to you. You are the same person, out in nature or at a party with friends - but your belief regarding who you are changes. You must believe you are that same person alone or in a crowd, or people will sense it but not know what's wrong - you'll just feel sketch to them.

Ya gotta love yourself, brother.

[movementforthebetter]

Sometimes you need to hate everything to push on. Anger motivates self-protection. Maybe a break from here and all the reminders of your traumas are what you need.

I'm sure you'll come through this and see it as a temporary dark (maybe black) spell, and you'll remember that an entire gender can't be the same any more than a billion snowflakes can be.

I hope you can ease up on both youself and the drinking. More than one person here has lashed out after a serious drinking spell. Wouldn't want to lose your voice that way. You deserve better for yourself.

We care for you here and we'll be here if you decide to come back. 

[mourningdove]

I just want to say thank you for everything that Kizzie wrote. I saw this thread last night and got very upset, but couldn't get it together to respond in a coherent way.

I feel badly for you, meursault. It seems pretty clear that you were having an EF, and that the seeming rejection by your date was a horrible trigger for you. I think that is understandable considering what you shared about the way you were treated by the women in your family growing up. You deserved so much better than what you got at home. Even now, you deserve to be respected and loved and accepted.

But no individual woman owes you anything, and as an adult, you must come to grips with that. A lot of what you wrote here is extremely misogynistic. I understand that you were triggered and venting, but you also might give some thought about why it is that you feel it is okay for you to pay for the use of women's bodies for sex, or why you would feel content with the idea of hypothetically ignoring the abuse of women in the future just because you didn't get your needs met this time with one particular lady. Her reluctance to meet might have had nothing to do with you, but what if she picked up on all the anger that you seem to have at women in general, or your apparent sense of entitlement regarding women?

[radical]

There is enormous collective wisdom here, Meursualt, and genuine caring.

Every reply to your post is full of different aspects of that wisdom, and also with love.

[meursault]

Don't know.  I'm still in a terrible place.  I think yeah, this is a really hard emotional flashback.  I think I am dissociating quite badly.  I can remember the last few days, but it doesn't seem like they exist.  My body feels like it is falling endlessly in space.

Anyhow.  I'm pretty ashamed of what I posted, and am sorry for what I said.  It really is very unfair, and it isn't something I even mean. 

I have just been in a non-stop wailing panic for days, and my mind has been like a pail of marbles in a paint shaker.

It was this desperate panicked neediness.  I can see pretty clearly what I was doing.  My Mom was a very politcal radical feminist growing up, and I think I just lost it with this sort of thinking:  The woman rejected me, and the agony and pain of it was overwhelming...  So I just started flailing around trying to do anything I could to change who I am so maybe I will be lovable.  So I basically utterly capitulated to my mom's messages thrashing around hoping that then I'd be lovable:  "Yes I am a monster.  I am subhuman garbage and deserve to die.  You are completely right about me.  I accept this.  I will be that way.  NOW CAN I BE LOVED?"  "I utterly accept defeat and will be whatever you tell me I am so I can become lovable."   I unfortunately articulated how desperately and completely I was willing to give up, and what that looked like from my home life to stop being attacked.

Pretty ugly, I guess.  Anyhow, I'm really sorry, and it was very unfair to all the people here who have been nothing but supportive.   

One comment  on Mourning Dove's post:  I don't think I am entitled to anything, nor owed anything.  That doesn't mean I think it's kind or fair to not articulate to someone why they are being rejected.  I think it's kind of cruel to just reject someone and leave them soul searching, over and over, why they are being rejected, completely in a vacuum.  I think that's extremely mean.  I also don't think I generally am very angry at women.  Sometimes, yeah, but not normally.  Normally I marvel at the women I meet.  I am excited to hear about their thoughts/opinions/lives, and generally find people (especially women) pretty awesome.  My therapist tells me I automatically assume women are right and I am wrong far too often.  It's of course unfair to assume women are all of some monolithic hive mind, but I think when you've spent almost half a century being rejected for anything other than friendship or sex, and never being told WHY you are being rejected, it's natural to assume it must be for the same reasons, and since it is so consistent, those reasons must be pretty obvious, but I'm just left with an endless sense of terror and brokenness, and no one thinks I'm worth enough to even be told what is so obvious.  As far as prostitution goes, I have no problem with it.  I think it should be legal.  I see no problem with someone who is willing to give comfort and affection for money. 

Anyhow, I was very unfair in what I posted.  I'm sorry.

Meursault

[sanmagic7]

meursault, have you ever asked any of these women why they 'rejected' you?  the women who don't want to have an ongoing relationship with you are the only ones who know, but often someone isn't going to tell someone something like that unless, possibly, they're asked.  just a thought.  glad you came back.

[Kizzie]

Taking responsibility and apologizing    and      Meursault. 

[radical]

I'm really glad you are back

One thing I disagree with, as someone who is exquisitely sensitive to rejection, is the idea that we are owed an explanation from those who choose to walk away, especially where there has been no long-term relationship.

Most people can't articulate their reasons anyway, but it is also threatening to feel that if we don't want to move closer, for any reason, we have to have a good reason for it. It can feel that the person who we don't want to be close to gets to determine whether that reason is good enough.  That creates a feeling of being manipulated, trapped or coerced. We don't need any reason at all.  We choose who we give our love to.  In most people, a feeling of being compelled, be it through fear,  power differentials or financial need, being pushed too far too fast, or pity, is a red flag to take a step back in itself.

I'm not suggesting you were being coercive, just that it can feel coercive.  I relate to feeling intensely lonely and sensitive to feeling rejected creating a vicious circle in which the desperation comunicates itself and sets-up the rejection I fear most.  People are frightened by intense need in others, and even if they aren't consciously aware of it, and the signs are subtle.   Just as importantly, people do take us at our own estimation, for better or worse.

Three Roses expressed the need to love ourselves so beautifully.  Being grounded by knowing our own deep value, makes us less vulnerable to the whimsy of others' feelings whether they be positive or negative.  Loving ourselves makes us less vulnerable to the machinations of users and abusers, who detect low self-worth the way a cheetah smells a fawn, as prey.

It's not fair that either of us didn't  get the love we deserved and learn our true value in the family relationships that are supposed to confer it.  We were betrayed.  There is plenty or betrayal and cruelty in this world, but we can't afford to project that betrayal onto others who had nothing to do with it.  No-one can ever "make up" the deficit.  Healthy relationships can help us heal over time, and healthy people tend to go slowly in getting to know and trust others.

We really do care, we see you, meursualt.

[meursault]

Yeah, Sanmagic, I have asked....

"I just don't see you that way."  [What way?  Then why did you go on a date with me?]
"I'm not really wanting to date." [Then why did you go on a date with me?]
"I just wanted sex." [At least that's straightforward.  'I only cared about your genitalia'.  Belittling, but at least it's honest.]
"I think you are awesome as a friend." [That doesn't say anything, and actually confuses me.  I also want you as a friend.  I want more though.]
"You're not my type."  [I can sort of see that.]
"You're super nice, and I would only hurt you."  [I'm okay with that.  Then hurt me.]
"You're one of my best friends and I love you.  I don't want to ruin that."  [And now it's ruined.]
"I would eat you alive."  [I'm good with that.]

I don't know.  There are a lot of "sort of" things, but very little that actually addresses things.  Mostly they just boil down to 'I don't feel that way about you.'  That doesn't really help me understand.  My best friend, J, tells me I look completely frozen when I'm around women iI find attractive, and she says she can walk into a place and tell in a half second glance that there is a woman I find attractive because I am frozen in terror.   She also says that she can only tell that because she knows me so well.   Most people tell me they are surprised when I tell them I have social anxiety.  So I don't know.

I have usually been able to compartmentalize that rejection and take it for what it is in most individual cases, but not always, and I am getting worse with it though.  Since I opened up with my therapist about growing up, I can't contain this very well.

I don't think I'm "owed" an explanation, but I think it is kind of vicious to not give one.  She told me she was glad I asked her out.  And then....  for no reason I can understand, I am rejected. I was being explicitly told how much she was liking our date, and then explicitly rejected.  I don't understand, and that is very crazy-making.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't being at all coercive.  I asked her if she wanted to go out again.  And she enthusiastically said yes, and then she was asking me what nights I was free, and we settled on a night we were both free, and she told me she was really glad she came out, and I told her me too, and I was really looking forward to seeing her again.  And she gave me a hug,  Then she texted me several times when she got home, talking.  Then she texted "we'll chat tomorrow" the day before date #2, Then said she'll take a raincheck because she's on her period, and then two days later I texted asking her if she was up for going out early in the week.  And she responded that she wasn't interested and she didn't consider it a date, and sorry if I misunderstood.  Despite the fact that during our initial banter, I said "Yeah, I guess I am.  Now I'm nervous, but yeah, I'm asking you on a date.'

Anyways.  I think this is going to take me quite a bit of time to deal with.  Probably several months.  I did untild damage in my personal life over the last couple of days.  I really doubt I have any friends anymore.  I think I must clearly be insane, because what was happening was not at all what I thought was happening.  I don't understand what she was doing in telling me that stuff...  She was actively letting me know she was interested and enjoying herself, and then BAM a complete change.

I'm also not sure about the "love yourself"  thing.  Why?  as far as I can tell most people don't love themselves and still have relationships.  If I need to do that before someone wants me, I'm screwed, and the quicker I die the better.

Meursault

[radical]

Why love yourself?

Because I know that is the problem - the bottom line. I know it as much as I know the wind in my face, and I'm not someone who feels certain of much.

It doesn't matter what this maps to in the brain.  It doesn't matter how you find it in yourself. I don't care how sappy it sounds because I can out-cynical you any day of the week, Meursault. The problem is not how others feel about you, it's how you feel about yourself.

Why don't people love you?  Why don't you love yourself?  The why isn't as important as finding ways to change it, but the answers to those two questions are the same.

There is absloutely nothing wrong with you, nothing unloveable about you.  The problem is you not being able to experience yourself as loveable. Tearing yourself apart, analysing situations into oblivion - not the answer.

It's a hard, but its not imposssible and we're here for you, we see it.