Can parentalization happen even when your an adult yourself?

[Indigochild]

Hello 

I have a question about parentalization.

Does anybody know if parentalization is still called *parentalization* if it is happening with your own parents / parent when you become an adult?
And also...would this be called parentalization, even though i am an adult now myself at age 25?
The name doesnt matter- his lack of showing normal caring behaviour towards me i know is ...not what most parents do.

I have no idea when this began with my dad, Im only starting to learn about my childhood and i have idolised him all of my life.
He is emotionally neglectful and never stood up to my mums emotional abuse.
He is the only family member i am properly in touch with.

My parents divorced when i was 17 years old.

When the divorce happened my dad (sober that day) was so upset and was saying over and over that he was a rubbish dad. This was really upsetting to hear. He was an emotional mess. 
He asked me if i would always be *dads girl* as he was afraid he would loose me and not see me because of the divorce.
I have started to notice recently, that he talks over me whenever i see him.
He always talks about himself.
He will come to visit (not often), and the first words that come out of his mouth are all about *himself*.

When my boyfriend and I broke up and i hate to stay at dads for a week, dad asked what happened, and i only told him a little, but as soon as i opened my mouth, he started going on about my mum and how *horrible she is* and how she made him feel. (he doesnt know though that she was emotionally abusive he just says that what she said was *hurtful*.

Last christmas, he was also asking me what i thought of his current girlfriend...what i think of her behaviour, and why i think she is like that. He complains to me about her now and again and has done in the past.
He sometimes tells me when he is feeling down.

I have wondered if he would be diagnosed a narcissist- but a covernt one? as he doesnt' demand others attention openly, he is very subtle about it. I have always thought perhaps borderline...but now I'm thinking the two (co morbid)

So yes...any opinions / thoughts would be welcome. Thanks 

[Kizzie]

Hi Indigo - If your F is always turning the conversation back on him it's a pretty good indicator he may be NPD, especially given that when you are having a bad time of it he turns the conversation to himself.  Normal people, parents in particular will be empathetic if you are telling them about a breakup or something similarly painful. 

I don't know if he is parentilizing you - if he is asking you for advice then perhaps.  If you are just a set of ears to listen to his woes, then maybe it's just that he's an N.  Either way, it sounds like he does have some boundary issues that are problematic for you.  My M used to talk right over top of me too and I used to feel myself just fade away     I just got so fed up I started saying things like "Excuse me, I'm not finished what I was saying" which she really didn't like and let me know it, but eventually she got the message.

[flyingfree]

The dynamic you have with your father sounds a lot like what I have with my covert NPD mother. It's all about her, she doesn't generally care about me or show much empathy.

As for parentifying I think there are elements of it there. My NM emotionally parentified me, which involved me being her counsellor. She used to moan to me about her marriage...to my father. And expect me to talk to him about their problems!

If your Dad is asking you for relationship advice, then yes, he is parentifying you. It's not your role, as a child (even at 25) to give him that advice.

Also, he should not be complaining about your Mother to you. That is wrong.

[Indigochild]

Hi Kizzie and coralreef,

"Excuse me, I'm not finished what I was saying" haha, I'm so glad you said that. 

Ill have to investigate more, but thank you for your opinions.
My dad actually asked what happened with the break up, then turned it back on himself.
He definitely does have boundary issues. At christmas when he was drunk, he got very physically close, hugging me very tightly, and had his hand on my hip with my top moved up slightly because of his hand. Was uncomfortable.
When i was growing up, he used to also be afraid of my mum with me, and it was (looking back, not that the time), but he wasnt on the same team as mum...and he also being afraid of her, was acting more like a friend or a brother and teaching me that yes, mum is scary.

I am so sorry that your mum doesnt show you much empathy and that she made you her councillor. It must of been difficult to say the least being stuck in the middle with your parents like that.
Do you think she perhaps does care about you but just cant show it as she is wrapped up in herself? Im not saying your wrong, its just i learned that with my mum, its not her not caring. I don't think so anyway...i go back and forth.

[Indigochild]

Ps. on second thought, perhaps your right...i have heard that people with Npd don't feel empathy or caring feelings for others. I don't know too much about Npd.

[Widdiful Falling]

If you're interested in learning more about NPD and the other cluster B personality disorders that turn parents into Narents, I would recommend Light's House. There are descriptions of each disorder, as well as examples of the ways they manifest themselves in real life. It's a very validating website, as it was written with the ACON in mind. Here's a link:

http://www.lightshouse.org/#axzz3ZpeiBI4Fu

Edit: I would feel bad plugging another site, and not mentioning our sister site Out of the FOG. It's also a good place to learn about PDs, but I think if you are new to the idea you should start with Light's because it's more concise and structured.

[flyingfree]

I am so sorry that your mum doesnt show you much empathy and that she made you her councillor. It must of been difficult to say the least being stuck in the middle with your parents like that.
Do you think she perhaps does care about you but just cant show it as she is wrapped up in herself? Im not saying your wrong, its just i learned that with my mum, its not her not caring. I don't think so anyway...i go back and forth.

TBH, I'm not 100% sure how it works for her. I don't think her lack of caring is out of a place of malice, it's just a straight up inability. That, plus her self-absorbtion.
I think it's two things - because she's NPD, her ability to empathise is 'broken'. She just can't sense what something is like for me, so she can't empathise. Secondly, I think it's that she's scared of other people's feelings. I honestly get the sense she can't handle it if I'm anything but OK, so that's how I have to be. The message she's always given me (spoken or unspoken) is that she 'can't cope'.

To illustrate, I was severely depressed and anxious as a teenager, and it was obvious, but she didn't confront it or do anything about it. I was expected to deal with it on my own. The whole of my childhood and teen years, she spent lots of time telling me how 'worried' she was about everything and everyone and how she couldn't sleep at night, but this never translated to any actions.

Sometimes she has weird flashes of seeming to notice I'm truly upset or whatever, but...it's just brief, and then it's gone.

Anyway! Widdiful's suggestion to look at Light's house is a good one. That website helped me realise my mother is NPD. The dynamic with your Dad certainly sounds like that, like he expects you to help him and soothe him. Which isn't right for a parent.

[Indigochild]

Coralreef,

I am so glad you wasnt mad at my question!

That makes sense about it being an inability to care.
Im not sure if this is the case with my parents, in that they have an inability to care, as i know how much like my mum i am. I do care, but find it hard to show it to others (partner I'm living with really- it all reflects home)
But maybe my mum doesnt have the ability to empathise - sounds like my dad doesnt.
Just because i do care about others doesnt mean they / he / she do too.

Both parents are afraid of other peoples feelings as well as their own.

Im sorry she was / is unable to be here for you and that she did nothing.
Her behaviour is bound to make you feel responsible for her. 

Umm...thanks for your opinion about my dad. Really not sure with him as i don't remember him doing when i was a child and growing up...but i realised i don't remember much of my childhood. Its been since the divorce but wasnt sure if it was often enough to be labeled Npd.  I don't live at home with him anymore, and christmas was a hard time for him ...but maybe I'm making excuses and it doesnt matter when your parents do it...say even if its during the christmas holidays that they rely on you.
He turns a lot onto himself....saying...oh your don't think about your old dad when your away....and ...saying *oh I'm a rubbish dad*, and getting all offended (when i said we don't spend time together anymore - but i know how sensitive he is so i was so careful about how i said it, was very none blaming and just said *i* miss spending time with him).
When i asked him why he buys similar things every time he goes shopping for food..just out of interest...he got upset and said that he is trying his best- as he took this as a criticism.
He thinks he is no good at anything ie. cooking- he feels his worth is dependant not on who he is as a person, but what he does. If what he makes isn't good enough, he feels its a reflection on him.
I thought he was Bpd.

Ok, im rambling now.
My mum is definitely obsessive compulsive personality, not sure if its comorbid with anything else...but it makes sense to me that it would be.

oh and found that out from the website.

[flyingfree]

No, that's ok, I would never get mad Everyone's situation is different after all, and trying to figure out what's behind PD behaviour is pretty mindboggling sometimes.

He definitely sounds like he has waif/martyr type behaviour going on - very much like my NM though I'm not saying he's necessarily NPD.

I don't remember much of my childhood either. My therapist explained that this is probably due to trauma and disassociating to cope with what was going on. It could be the same for you.

I hope you find some answers. The sister site, Out of the FOG is really good for this too.

[Indigochild]

Yes, i have heard that it can be disassociating in childhood.  I realised i was doing it in my life now, when i couldn't remember saying something my partner said i had.
I was very shocked at not being able to remember my childhood.  I wonder if i lived much of it not even knowing i was blocking some or most things out.  It was really scary to realise that i couldn't remember much of my life.
The only thing that is good about it as well as not remembering painful things..is that ..my mum used to say to me..oh with you its always in one ear and out the other!!...and as i have proved (not to her though)...what she said to me has gone in one ear and out the other..only thats more the memories of all she said and did...her voice is still in my head.
She used to be annoyed thinking i wasnt listening to her. Maybe i actually wasnt.

Can i ask what you mean when you say he is definitely *waif*?
He defiantly had matry type behaviour yes. I will check out ootf, thanks a lot.

I hope you are getting on well with your therapy.

[Indigochild]

Hi Coralreef

Thankyou so much for suggesting the website.

I was un able to see this myself from reading the descriptions of disorders, but with the help of my partner, we managed to figure out that my mum has Narcasistic Personaltiy Disorder, and that my dad sounds very Histrionic and possible bpd.
Mum is also Obsessive compulsive personality disorder, and I'm not sure if borderline...but I'm thinking perhaps.

That was really tough going. Such a world turning realisation i cant even put it into words.

Thank you , thank you thank you.

[Dutch Uncle]

I'd like to put in a word of caution:

It's very hard to diagnose anybody from a distance. Even trained psychologist/psychiatrist are reluctant to diagnose anybody who does not cooperate themselves. I've brought up my uHPD sister, uHPD mother and suspected Asperger dad in sessions with my psychologist, and basically the answer was: "I can't diagnose THEM without seeing them eye-to-eye in a cooperative atmosphere".

That being said, you are probably right by identifying certain traits of your mom and dad associated with certain disorders. Those could well be spot-on. First focus on those, and your difficulties with those traits, without 'dumping' the full disorder on them.


I'm new to this site, but I think the reason why so many people speak of their u(undiagnosed)HPD/NPD/whatever is because of the very fact that unless a professional makes an informed assessment, there is plenty of room for error.
Not for our difficulties with those traits, those are very real  .

[Indigochild]

Hi, you are absolutely right.

I do urge caution but got caught up thinking this was her.

My mum filled in all the boxes for Narcasism and all the boxes for Ocpd. Thats the only reason I'm thinking she is, and all the things she said to me ,and did are written there in stone.
I cant diagnose no, and of course i would never tell her that i suspect this disorder.

I am on the waiting list for therapy. Its a shame they cant diagnose with out seeing the person, but perhaps they could provide an opinion.

I knew she had problems due to her own childhood, and now its given me insight as to what my childhood was like, as its hard to see it unless someone tells you about it, which is what that website did.

Thanks so much though.

[Boatsetsailrose]

Hi indigo
Thank you for your  post - it's just what I need today

My father and grandmother are the only family I have touch with-
I am going to see them soon (it's been 2 yrs). I am staying with my father and whilst I know the one sided relationship is tough there is a part of me that needs to stop running away and be 42 yrs old in his space -
After ' our' phone conversation last night I thought 'what the * am I doing ! '

I still can't sometimes believe (after all this time )that he cannot connect with me -

Quote 'his lack of showing normal caring behaviour towards me '
'Never stood up to mums emotional abuse '
'Always talks about himself'

But I know today he can't - and that's it- I have to keep this expectation down and work with acceptance. How sad for him that he can't -
For me now ( he has just turned 70) it's about what kind of daughter do I want to be, and the answer to that is I want to be able to offer something to him - eg I am here if his health goes down or he needs help - I meet with him and listen to him ( I don't have to try and fix him anymore )
I enjoy the fun times we have 'normally doing an activity helps get away from the 'me' syndrome
And importantly that I can be there for me - stay in my own body - aid flashbacks ( gee I better take p walker with me when I go up there ) stay in phone contact with others - take time out eg go for walk / run ... And know 'HE CANNOT PROVIDE FOR ME WHAT I NEED IN A RELATIONSHIP ' he can't and that is a given
It's not 2 way it never has been - that emptiness I feel is a hole that is to be filled up by all I have learnt and healed from- when I speak I speak and share because I do it FOR ME -
I do not have to be 'the people pleasing , listening counsellor anymore - those times have passed -
I can be me and be in my own body and energy and distract - giving all my power away is not something I have to do anymore
Saying all this today feels good 
The trip may be a success it may be a failure - the thing is I am ready to move on - my feeling is it will prob be a mixture of the 2 -
And so my feelings will be a mixture of the 2
Writing may help me and I am going to take my journal

Re the pd thing - for me it was helpful to 'unofficially diagnose my parents ' for me it helped so much to have a frame of reference and all the resources that I have found to help understand and empower me to healing ...
My dad I would say is poss aspergers / npd
Mother bpd

I diagnosed for me - not for them
I deserve that right I feel
Also re alcohol - my dad isn't a drinker but I know from my own journey of sobriety I have learnt that alcoholics are very selfish self absorbed people ( I know as I am one !!!
It's taken me 5 yrs sober to really start seeing that

[Dutch Uncle]

Hi Boatsetsailrose,

I hope and wish you'll have a good trip and a good meet with dad and grandma.

Re the pd thing - for me it was helpful to 'unofficially diagnose my parents ' for me it helped so much to have a frame of reference and all the resources that I have found to help understand and empower me to healing ...
My dad I would say is poss aspergers / npd
Mother bpd

I too have found it helpful to 'diagnose' my parents. And eerily enough: I'm pretty sure my dad is Asperger's and my mom HPD.
I have read up a lot on Asperger's, and it has done me good, insofar that now that I 'treat' him as an Asperger's, contact has been much better.
I'd say (but I'm not a psychologist by any stretch) that he can't be both, since NPD and Asperger's are two completely different ballgames. In essence, for me, a "cluster B" personality disorder (NPD, HPD, BPD and/or ASPD) is characterized by complete unpredictability, manifesting in manipulation, while Asperger's are very predictable. They don't manipulate, on the contrary: everything is set in stone. (I'm obviously painting a much too black-and-white picture here, for clarity sake)

If you want and feel up to it, I'd like to exchange experiences with you, regarding an uAsperger's dad. Because it's not easy for me to handle this amateur diagnosis of Asperger's in my dad, yet I do experience that since I 'treat' him as such, I'm more balanced when (and after) meeting him, which only seems to confirm my suspicion. He seems to be more at ease as well. (though he doesn't know what I think I know)
It still isn't easy to 'deal' with him, but is certainly does make it less hard.